USA Today names R.J. Barrett POTY; R.J. and Zion named 1st Team All-Americans

[BlueDevil16]

Likely not to be the last similarity.

When is NPOY announced?

[InSpades]

Love RJ. He's had an incredible season. Many other seasons you could make a strong case for him being the best player in college basketball. But...

Zion is 1 of the best defensive players in the country. He's very good 1 on 1. He's very good getting in the passing lanes. He's very good as a help defense blocker. If he's not your PotY then you haven't been watching... the only argument against Zion is the time he sat out and even that is a pretty weak argument.

[Acymetric]

Love me some RJ, huge fan of RJ... but Zion is POY and history will look back on this pick by USA Today with laughter.

I love both players, and this is a great honor for RJ. Certainly both are deserving first team All-Americans...it would be hard for me to pick anyone other than Zion as NPOY, especially after his performance in the ACC Tournament.

Yeah, though fairly close; RJ finished with 22.9 ppg and Zion 22.1

Out of curiosity, does Zion's average include the first unc game?

[kshepinthehouse]

I love both players, and this is a great honor for RJ. Certainly both are deserving first team All-Americans...it would be hard for me to pick anyone other than Zion as NPOY, especially after his performance in the ACC Tournament.



Out of curiosity, does Zion's average include the first unc game?

Yes I believe it does.

[AGDukesky]

I love both players, and this is a great honor for RJ. Certainly both are deserving first team All-Americans...it would be hard for me to pick anyone other than Zion as NPOY, especially after his performance in the ACC Tournament.



Out of curiosity, does Zion's average include the first unc game?

It does plus the half game against FSU where he had 11 and 8 already before getting poked in the eye

[Phredd3]

While I agree that Zion is the NPOY, I might just be tempted to call RJ our team MVP for the season. I don't usually distinguish between Most Outstanding Player, or Player of the [Game/Tournament/Year], because they seem designed to get at the same thing. But the specific phrasing Most Valuable Player, to me, implies highest total value over the the given time period, and Zion has missed quite a bit of time this season. RJ might be justifiable as MVP on that ground.

Sure, it's technical and hair-splitting, but if that's what you have to do to give RJ some well-deserved accolades, I'm all for it. Zion will win plenty of awards in his own right.

[Acymetric]

While I agree that Zion is the NPOY, I might just be tempted to call RJ our team MVP for the season. I don't usually distinguish between Most Outstanding Player, or Player of the [Game/Tournament/Year], because they seem designed to get at the same thing. But the specific phrasing Most Valuable Player, to me, implies highest total value over the the given time period, and Zion has missed quite a bit of time this season. RJ might be justifiable as MVP on that ground.

Sure, it's technical and hair-splitting, but if that's what you have to do to give RJ some well-deserved accolades, I'm all for it. Zion will win plenty of awards in his own right.

I think we would have needed to not lose with Zion out for that to really have merit.

[JayZee]

Someone on DBR posted that RJ had flat out said Zion was the best player in the country. I don't know if that is true or not, and I"m not sure who posted it and whether they were literally quoting RJ or generalizing. The way I see it, RJ's self confidence is such that he realizes Zion is the best player but that this fact takes nothing away from RJ being RJ...and takes nothing away from RJ's own greatness.

yep yep.

and Zion says that this is RJs team

confidence and mutual respect

[CDu]

Out of curiosity, does Zion's average include the first unc game?

Yes, it does. In games in which Zion played and was healthy (i.e., excluding the FSU game and the first UNC game), he averaged 23.4 PPG and 9.3 RPG.

[CDu]

[Deleted because I can't maneuver the internet very well]

[Wahoo2000]

"Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone...."

Hypothetical for you guys based on what I'm reading in this thread:

If RJ, rather than Zion, had the blowout in the first minute of the UNC game and missed the next 5 games as well, is Duke any better than 3-3 in that stretch? Because I don't think so.

I think Barrett gets a little taken for granted here. Zion makes MANY more ***WOW!*** plays, but I think Barrett is MUCH closer to Zion in overall ability/value than many here seem to be representing. I'd still give the edge to Zion, but it's REAL close. I think losing EITHER player causes Duke to take a similar drop-off in overall effectiveness/quality.

[CDu]

If RJ, rather than Zion, had the blowout in the first minute of the UNC game and missed the next 5 games as well, is Duke any better than 3-3 in that stretch? Because I don't think so.

I suspect we would have done a bit better than 3-3. We probably still lose the first UNC game, just on shock value alone. Barrett wasn't very effective in the second UNC game, shooting just 37% and scoring 26 points on 27 shots with 4 turnovers. Maybe Zion makes the difference, maybe not.

Similarly, we lost by just 5 in Blacksburg. Barrett played well, but not great. And we couldn't defend Blackshear, nor could we force them into turnovers. Zion was very much a missing piece in that game.

I'd guess we'd have gone 4-2 in that hypothetical, winning either the VT game or the second UNC game.

I think Barrett gets a little taken for granted here. Zion makes MANY more ***WOW!*** plays, but I think Barrett is MUCH closer to Zion in overall ability/value than many here seem to be representing. I'd still give the edge to Zion, but it's REAL close. I think losing EITHER player causes Duke to take a similar drop-off in overall effectiveness/quality.

I think Barrett is a terrific player. But it's really not close between him and Zion. Zion is WAY better. That's not meant as a slight to Barrett, who is a very good player himself. But he's a versatile but fairly inefficient offensive player, and he's a mediocre defensive player. Zion, on the other hand, is just absurd on both ends. Way more efficient and effective on offense, way more versatile and effective on defense. I'm not certain that there is anything Barrett does better than Williamson. Maybe passing, but even there I'm not sure. Barrett benefits a lot from being able to pass to Zion, while Zion is asked to focus on scoring).

We've certainly gotten a lot of value from Barrett. I think he'll deservedly wind up a 1st Team All-American. But Zion is just on an entirely different level.

[Steven43]

"Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..."

Hypothetical for you guys based on what I'm reading in this thread:

If RJ, rather than Zion, had the blowout in the first minute of the UNC game and missed the next 5 games as well, is Duke any better than 3-3 in that stretch? Because I don't think so.

I think Barrett gets a little taken for granted here. Zion makes MANY more ***WOW!*** plays, but I think Barrett is MUCH closer to Zion in overall ability/value than many here seem to be representing. I'd still give the edge to Zion, but it's REAL close. I think losing EITHER player causes Duke to take a similar drop-off in overall effectiveness/quality.

Interesting hypothesis, though I don’t agree with it. We are talking about a player — Zion Williamson — who many basketball experts say might well be the best college basketball player of the past three decades, and maybe longer. I don’t see much of a debate here.

[Phredd3]

I think we would have needed to not lose with Zion out for that to really have merit.

Against the quality of opposition we faced? That is an insanely high bar. Heck, we beat the team down the road by ONE POINT with both of them in the lineup. As posted above, do you really think without RJ we win that game?

[Steven43]

I suspect we would have done a bit better than 3-3. We probably still lose the first UNC game, just on shock value alone. Barrett wasn't very effective in the second UNC game, shooting just 37% and scoring 26 points on 27 shots with 4 turnovers. Maybe Zion makes the difference, maybe not.

Similarly, we lost by just 5 in Blacksburg. Barrett played well, but not great. And we couldn't defend Blackshear, nor could we force them into turnovers. Zion was very much a missing piece in that game.

I'd guess we'd have gone 4-2 in that hypothetical, winning either the VT game or the second UNC game.



I think Barrett is a terrific player. But it's really not close between him and Zion. Zion is WAY better. That's not meant as a slight to Barrett, who is a very good player himself. But he's a versatile but fairly inefficient offensive player, and he's a mediocre defensive player. Zion, on the other hand, is just absurd on both ends. Way more efficient and effective on offense, way more versatile and effective on defense. I'm not certain that there is anything Barrett does better than Williamson. Maybe passing, but even there I'm not sure. Barrett benefits a lot from being able to pass to Zion, while Zion is asked to focus on scoring).

We've certainly gotten a lot of value from Barrett. I think he'll deservedly wind up a 1st Team All-American. But Zion is just on an entirely different level.

Kudos, CDu. You knocked it out of the park once again.

[Wahoo2000]

I suspect we would have done a bit better than 3-3. We probably still lose the first UNC game, just on shock value alone. Barrett wasn't very effective in the second UNC game, shooting just 37% and scoring 26 points on 27 shots with 4 turnovers. Maybe Zion makes the difference, maybe not.

Similarly, we lost by just 5 in Blacksburg. Barrett played well, but not great. And we couldn't defend Blackshear, nor could we force them into turnovers. Zion was very much a missing piece in that game.

I'd guess we'd have gone 4-2 in that hypothetical, winning either the VT game or the second UNC game.



I think Barrett is a terrific player. But it's really not close between him and Zion. Zion is WAY better. That's not meant as a slight to Barrett, who is a very good player himself. But he's a versatile but fairly inefficient offensive player, and he's a mediocre defensive player. Zion, on the other hand, is just absurd on both ends. Way more efficient and effective on offense, way more versatile and effective on defense. I'm not certain that there is anything Barrett does better than Williamson. Maybe passing, but even there I'm not sure. Barrett benefits a lot from being able to pass to Zion, while Zion is asked to focus on scoring).

We've certainly gotten a lot of value from Barrett. I think he'll deservedly wind up a 1st Team All-American. But Zion is just on an entirely different level.

Yeah - this all makes a lot of sense. I guess a more appropriate analogy is that Barrett is more like Wade to Zion's Lebron. So I'll say this - Zion might be a clear notch above, but you're not winning any titles without Barrett either.

[Steven43]

So I'll say this - Zion might be a clear notch above, but you're not winning any titles without Barrett either.

Undoubtedly true. Good luck to your Cavaliers on Friday (and almost certainly Sunday as well).

[CDu]

Yeah - this all makes a lot of sense. I guess a more appropriate analogy is that Barrett is more like Wade to Zion's Lebron. So I'll say this - Zion might be a clear notch above, but you're not winning any titles without Barrett either.

I'd amend this slightly. There have been worse teams to win titles than a team with Zion/Reddish/Jones/Bolden/DeLaurier/White/O'Connell/Goldwire/Baker/Vrankovic. We certainly wouldn't be the clear favorite without Barrett. We most likely wouldn't be a 1 seed (probably a 2 or 3). And we probably wouldn't be any more likely to win it than any other 2 or 3 seed. But to say that we definitely wouldn't win any titles is probably going a step too far. I'm sure that's more in line with what you meant, and if so I agree.

[madscavenger]

Offense

Zion. Scores consistently from all ranges, powers his way to the basket at will with minimal fouling, and has extraordinary footwork and hand strength making him extremely tough to guard. He doesn't get rattled. Cold streaks? No. Bad shot selection? Given his focus, no.

RJ too often gets stuffed, driving to the hoop against a collapsing defense. He has had games where he's been badly out of sync, missing one shot after another after another. He still gets his points most of the time, but it takes a lot of shots to get them. Free throws? Don't ask. And, he gets his pocket picked.

Defense


Zion, Zion by a mile. Blocks, steals, intimidation. He can guard one-on-one due to superbly smooth lateral movement, quickness and incessant awareness. But wait, there's more. He can rip the ball out of the grip of almost anyone.

RJ? I wouldn't waste time trying to make a comparison, other than there are times when he's so focused on offense that defense does not receive sufficient attention.



There are other considerations of import, but ask yourself this:

The clock is ticking down, the games on the line and there's time for one more play. Just one. Who do you want to take the shot? Case closed.



It does sound like i'm talking about RJ like he's not even a candidate for POTY. He is, he definitely is. We're talking relativism here, solely A vs B. Absent Zion, RJ would be a heavy favorite --------- but, he is no Zion.

[Wahoo2000]

I'd amend this slightly. There have been worse teams to win titles than a team with Zion/Reddish/Jones/Bolden/DeLaurier/White/O'Connell/Goldwire/Baker/Vrankovic. We certainly wouldn't be the clear favorite without Barrett. We most likely wouldn't be a 1 seed (probably a 2 or 3). And we probably wouldn't be any more likely to win it than any other 2 or 3 seed. But to say that we definitely wouldn't win any titles is probably going a step too far. I'm sure that's more in line with what you meant, and if so I agree.

100%

Would've just sporked you, but must spread some love around first...