Blackshear and Barrett when shoulder is a foul?

[Ranidad]

Not a rules expert but last night baffled me. To my eyes on most replays of Blackshear working inside for a basket and/or foul he would initiate contact with the defender using his shoulder and then go up. I do not remember any of those being called an offensive foul.

On the numerous offensive fouls called on RJ, not only last night, the announcers always point to his leading with his shoulder and initiating contact as reason for charge instead of a block.

RJ’s are usually in open space and the defender falls while Blackshear’sare generally in the post and the defender is then off balance when he goes up for the shot.

Is there a different standard for post play versus open floor? Is the dramatic fall in the open floor what seals the call? Or am I just biased in my perception?

[uh_no]

Not a rules expert but last night baffled me. To my eyes on most replays of Blackshear working inside for a basket and/or foul he would initiate contact with the defender using his shoulder and then go up. I do not remember any of those being called an offensive foul.

On the numerous offensive fouls called on RJ, not only last night, the announcers always point to his leading with his shoulder and initiating contact as reason for charge instead of a block.

RJ’s are usually in open space and the defender falls while Blackshear’sare generally in the post and the defender is then off balance when he goes up for the shot.

Is there a different standard for post play versus open floor? Is the dramatic fall in the open floor what seals the call? Or am I just biased in my perception?

Whether by the book or not, RJ will stick his forearm out and give a bit of a shiver as he goes into a guy, that's FAR more visible and likely to be called.

[Rich]

Not a rules expert but last night baffled me. To my eyes on most replays of Blackshear working inside for a basket and/or foul he would initiate contact with the defender using his shoulder and then go up. I do not remember any of those being called an offensive foul.

On the numerous offensive fouls called on RJ, not only last night, the announcers always point to his leading with his shoulder and initiating contact as reason for charge instead of a block.

RJ’s are usually in open space and the defender falls while Blackshear’s are generally in the post and the defender is then off balance when he goes up for the shot.

Is there a different standard for post play versus open floor? Is the dramatic fall in the open floor what seals the call? Or am I just biased in my perception?

You answered your own question. The rules are the same but they look different and so the consequences are different.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Not a rules expert but last night baffled me. To my eyes on most replays of Blackshear working inside for a basket and/or foul he would initiate contact with the defender using his shoulder and then go up. I do not remember any of those being called an offensive foul.

On the numerous offensive fouls called on RJ, not only last night, the announcers always point to his leading with his shoulder and initiating contact as reason for charge instead of a block.

RJ’s are usually in open space and the defender falls while Blackshear’sare generally in the post and the defender is then off balance when he goes up for the shot.

Is there a different standard for post play versus open floor? Is the dramatic fall in the open floor what seals the call? Or am I just biased in my perception?

Simple:
Blackshear gets away with offensive fouls and illegal screens. He just does, and always has.
RJ gets called very tightly on charging.
Different standards because refs are so afraid of being part of the "Duke gets all the calls" thing...

[alteran]

Not a rules expert but last night baffled me. To my eyes on most replays of Blackshear working inside for a basket and/or foul he would initiate contact with the defender using his shoulder and then go up. I do not remember any of those being called an offensive foul.

On the numerous offensive fouls called on RJ, not only last night, the announcers always point to his leading with his shoulder and initiating contact as reason for charge instead of a block.

RJ’s are usually in open space and the defender falls while Blackshear’sare generally in the post and the defender is then off balance when he goes up for the shot.

Is there a different standard for post play versus open floor? Is the dramatic fall in the open floor what seals the call? Or am I just biased in my perception?

The whole block/charge situation in college basketball is a steaming pile of tar heel.

Even this crap about lowering the shoulder is super subjective. I’ve repeatedly seen commentators justify bad calls when the defensive player clearly initiated contact (“well, they probably would have let it go except he lowered the shoulder”) when the charging player did not do anything at all like lowering the shoulder.

Any time two players collide, just flip a coin and call it one way or the other— the result would look no different to outside observers than the status quo.

I personally would prefer they return to the old standard of set defensive position for one full second. It wouldn’t be perfect but it’d beat the current situation of six guys flying backward like they were hit by a Mack truck any time a strong player moves toward the basket.

[Rich]

The whole block/charge situation in college basketball is a steaming pile of tar heel.

Even this crap about lowering the shoulder is super subjective. I’ve repeatedly seen commentators justify bad calls when the defensive player clearly initiated contact (“well, they probably would have let it go except he lowered the shoulder”) when the charging player did not do anything at all like lowering the shoulder.

Any time two players collide, just flip a coin and call it one way or the other— the result would look no different to outside observers than the status quo.

I personally would prefer they return to the old standard of set defensive position for one full second. It wouldn’t be perfect but it’d beat the current situation of six guys flying backward like they were hit by a Mack truck any time a strong player moves toward the basket.

Agreed, this whole BS of "legal guarding position" and calling a charge when the defender is backpedaling or moving sideways and then launches their body backwards when there is contact is just awful. Whatever happened to offense freedom of movement?

[HereBeforeCoachK]

The whole block/charge situation in college basketball is a steaming pile of tar heel.

Even this crap about lowering the shoulder is super subjective. I’ve repeatedly seen commentators justify bad calls when the defensive player clearly initiated contact (“well, they probably would have let it go except he lowered the shoulder”) when the charging player did not do anything at all like lowering the shoulder.

Any time two players collide, just flip a coin and call it one way or the other— the result would look no different to outside observers than the status quo.

I personally would prefer they return to the old standard of set defensive position for one full second. It wouldn’t be perfect but it’d beat the current situation of six guys flying backward like they were hit by a Mack truck any time a strong player moves toward the basket.

Well you are correct that it's a steaming pile...officials are clueless and over their heads on how to call it. Officials training misses one huge thing that could easily be corrected, but in the arrogance (and officials have their own little political fiefdom and have no idea how poor the state of their art is) they won't do it.

The only thing is, to go to the old one second standard, it gives the defender no chance against a Blackshear or Harden who always do initiate

[alteran]

Well you are correct that it's a steaming pile...officials are clueless and over their heads on how to call it. Officials training misses one huge thing that could easily be corrected, but in the arrogance (and officials have their own little political fiefdom and have no idea how poor the state of their art is) they won't do it.

The only thing is, to go to the old one second standard, it gives the defender no chance against a Blackshear or Harden who always do initiate

I agree it wouldn’t be perfect, it’d just be better.

And you could eliminate some of the bs simply by telling to officials to call nothing unless it is very, very clearly one way or the other. (Granted, they’re trying to do something like that now and the officials aren’t doing it.)

[WVDUKEFAN]

I agree it wouldn’t be perfect, it’d just be better.

And you could eliminate some of the bs simply by telling to officials to call nothing unless it is very, very clearly one way or the other. (Granted, they’re trying to do something like that now and the officials aren’t doing it.)

RJ has a habit of driving with his shoulder and forcing contact. Last night he was pushing off with his arm.