Another scandal in college sports (cheating and bribes)

[weezie]

...My understanding is that it MAY help an applicant very slightly for admission to Duke if they are a legacy but that it can help a LOT if that legacy's parents or grandparents have given a substantial amount of money to Duke...

I think the basket applies for those parents who have given consistently over the years, not just the big lump when a child is applying.

[rocketeli]

Make no mistake, colleges and universities are businesses, and nowhere are they more "business-y" than in the admissions office. it's a shame, but the way admissions are set up now there is no connection between what the professors what, and what would make up a true intellectually diverse community and what the admissions office wants. The admissions office, with no input from faculty, has decided that what the school needs is extroverted, hyperactive politicians, the prom king and the soccer captain, because they see those people as being more likely to reward the school latter with prestige and money. More subtly their selection rewards early puberty (because you need to more mentally and physically mature to do the things needed for prestigious admissions) and wealth ( as mom needs to give up her career and drive junior all over the place to do camps, clinics, leagues, charity work, or else arrange it for him). There is no place in the admission office for the lower income student who has to work at McDonalds or can only afford school activities orthe poet, the introvert, the dreamer, the original thinker rather than doer, or the late bloomer. And that's the real shame.

[freshmanjs]

Make no mistake, colleges and universities are businesses, and nowhere are they more "business-y" than in the admissions office. it's a shame, but the way admissions are set up now there is no connection between what the professors what, and what would make up a true intellectually diverse community and what the admissions office wants. The admissions office, with no input from faculty, has decided that what the school needs is extroverted, hyperactive politicians, the prom king and the soccer captain, because they see those people as being more likely to reward the school latter with prestige and money. More subtly their selection rewards early puberty (because you need to more mentally and physically mature to do the things needed for prestigious admissions) and wealth ( as mom needs to give up her career and drive junior all over the place to do camps, clinics, leagues, charity work, or else arrange it for him). There is no place in the admission office for the lower income student who has to work at McDonalds or can only afford school activities orthe poet, the introvert, the dreamer, the original thinker rather than doer, or the late bloomer. And that's the real shame.

Don't agree with most of this. There certainly is a set of privileged and legacy kids that have an easier time getting in. No question about that. It's only a minority of admitted students, though. There are a lot of students in your "no place for" categories at all of the top schools. Seeing where the classmates of my kids have been accepted anecdotally shows that the prom king, soccer captain types you describe are far from the only ones getting into great schools.

It's not as much of a meritocracy as we would all like -- I do agree on that point.

[jv001]

LOL, my thought exactly! I can understand Yale, Stanford, Duke...and maybe a few others. But I'm not paying a $100,000 bribe for my kid to go to WFU!

Whoa, the demon deacon police will be at your door tomorrow morning. Sic em devildeac. Wake Forest is a very good university and many doctors and nurses come through Wake Forest. Then there's Wake Forest Baptist Hospital and Brenner Children's Hospital. Matter of fact my doctor is a graduate of Wake Forest. Good school. GoDuke!

[BLPOG]

I think the desire for power and prestige is what drives individuals. But our systems, organizations, institutions, and society at large is driven by money. The way we choose who gets to be in power and who gets to create the rules, the process is decided by money. Capital and profit rules all.

I think that the desire to effect local reversals of entropy in an open system is what drives most individuals.

I wouldn't advise hanging around the other guys, though. They are no fun at all.

[Stray Gator]

Make no mistake, colleges and universities are businesses, and nowhere are they more "business-y" than in the admissions office. it's a shame, but the way admissions are set up now there is no connection between what the professors what, and what would make up a true intellectually diverse community and what the admissions office wants. The admissions office, with no input from faculty, has decided that what the school needs is extroverted, hyperactive politicians, the prom king and the soccer captain, because they see those people as being more likely to reward the school latter with prestige and money. More subtly their selection rewards early puberty (because you need to more mentally and physically mature to do the things needed for prestigious admissions) and wealth ( as mom needs to give up her career and drive junior all over the place to do camps, clinics, leagues, charity work, or else arrange it for him). There is no place in the admission office for the lower income student who has to work at McDonalds or can only afford school activities orthe poet, the introvert, the dreamer, the original thinker rather than doer, or the late bloomer. And that's the real shame.

I'm not qualified to address the practices at other schools, but based on my experience and observations as an active member of two local Duke AAAC committees for more than 20 years, who worked directly with the individual in the Duke Admissions Office responsible for maintaining contact with local schools, making presentations to parent groups in the various communities, and screening applicants from our region, I feel confident saying that your premise regarding the criteria applied in admissions decisions does not apply at Duke.

[uh_no]

I would guess that the weaker the candidate is, the larger the donations (past or future) would have to be.

so i wonder what the dollar value per SAT point is

[dukelifer]

Make no mistake, colleges and universities are businesses, and nowhere are they more "business-y" than in the admissions office. it's a shame, but the way admissions are set up now there is no connection between what the professors what, and what would make up a true intellectually diverse community and what the admissions office wants. The admissions office, with no input from faculty, has decided that what the school needs is extroverted, hyperactive politicians, the prom king and the soccer captain, because they see those people as being more likely to reward the school latter with prestige and money. More subtly their selection rewards early puberty (because you need to more mentally and physically mature to do the things needed for prestigious admissions) and wealth ( as mom needs to give up her career and drive junior all over the place to do camps, clinics, leagues, charity work, or else arrange it for him). There is no place in the admission office for the lower income student who has to work at McDonalds or can only afford school activities orthe poet, the introvert, the dreamer, the original thinker rather than doer, or the late bloomer. And that's the real shame.

University admissions does have some sense of what is a good fit for the University at multiple levels. When you have 40,000 kids apply for 1500 slots- it is a challenge to figure out who to take. Duke could take 1500 other kids and there would be no or little statistical difference between the groups in scores and extra curricular engagement. It is true that some kids get preference if there is a family connection but the student must not be too much of an outlier. But the system can be corrupted. I would not be surprised if this happens more than what has been revealed so far.

[devildeac]

I believe you are right here. My understanding is that it MAY help an applicant very slightly for admission to Duke if they are a legacy but that it can help a LOT if that legacy's parents or grandparents have given a substantial amount of money to Duke. I don't know what the "substantial" threshold is and I would also guess it might depend on how strong (or weak) a candidate the legacy applicant is. I would guess that the weaker the candidate is, the larger the donations (past or future) would have to be.

I'll try our short version here. My wife and I both graduated from Duke and moved back to NC in 1986. She has a sister and BIL who went to Duke, too. All 4 legacies were listed on our kids apps (d'oh!). All 3 kids applied to and got into Duke, Wake and cheater "u." We believe they were all qualified with the oldest child a bit less so (I'll not discuss SAT scores, GPA, class rank, activities, etc). Oldest child went with the wrong color blue but we still love her (I never signed any checks for tuition for her .) The other two both went to Duke. We were told during the NC/SC Days at Duke during their campus visits when the admissions officers talked to us that NC and SC residents were given some additional priority and legacies were given a bit more preference and their apps were looked at by 3 or more admissions people and other candidates "only" two. These "benefits" were not quantified but I remember some vague reference to a point scale/scoring system. Our alumni contributions were modest but we're also intelligent enough to think larger contributions over longer periods of time would be more influential than ours. Hope that helps.

[devildeac]

Whoa, the demon deacon police will be at your door tomorrow morning. Sic em devildeac. Wake Forest is a very good university and many doctors and nurses come through Wake Forest. Then there's Wake Forest Baptist Hospital and Brenner Children's Hospital. Matter of fact my doctor is a graduate of Wake Forest. Good school. GoDuke!

LOL. See my ~600 PM post.

[devildeac]

so i wonder what the dollar value per SAT point is

You stats folks just don't quit, do you?

[sagegrouse]

Insightful post with which I generally agree, though with one caveat. I do believe that Duke applicants who are children of or otherwise related to alums go into a different "basket", and that the giving history of those alums is definitely a consideration in the ultimate decision by the Admissions Department. Exactly how important a consideration is shrouded in mystery of course, but I'm pretty sure it's not inconsequential.

I can't answer that (or any other question), but Duke Alumni has a "senior director of alumni" admissions who is an advocate for children or (!!) grandchildren of alumni. I believe she sits in on deliberations involving alumni children. She will also advise applicants, including "no-fault" interview sessions, which my grandson took advantage of (he is at U. of Denver -- not leaving the Rocky Mountains).

[BTW -- strange thing. We went for a briefing and a campus tour. The speaker asked for a show of hands of the Duke alums in the room of 70+ people. He and I were the only ones. I don't want to generalize, but do alums taking kids to apply think, "We don't need no stinkin' tour -- I'll show you the campus!!"]

Back 20 or so years ago, we would advise parents whose kids were applying to select "early decision" as a way of showing commitment; I am told that that doesn't matter very much any more -- but I am not sure I believe it.

As to "development admits," I am sure that every school is swayed to some degree. But the case at hand is just plain fraud, committed against the schools.

BTW, johnb's post somewhere above was thoughtful and well-reasoned; I can't imagine how we disagreed so much about Tommy Amaker's early tenure at Harvard.

[-jk]

I can't answer that (or any other question), but Duke Alumni has a "senior director of alumni" admissions who is an advocate for children or (!!) grandchildren of alumni. I believe she sits in on deliberations involving alumni children. She will also advise applicants, including "no-fault" interview sessions, which my grandson took advantage of (he is at U. of Denver -- not leaving the Rocky Mountains).

[BTW -- strange thing. We went for a briefing and a campus tour. The speaker asked for a show of hands of the Duke alums in the room of 70+ people. He and I were the only ones. I don't want to generalize, but do alums taking kids to apply think, "We don't need no stinkin' tour -- I'll show you the campus!!"]

Back 20 or so years ago, we would advise parents whose kids were applying to select "early decision" as a way of showing commitment; I am told that that doesn't matter very much any more -- but I am not sure I believe it.

As to "development admits," I am sure that every school is swayed to some degree. But the case at hand is just plain fraud, committed against the schools.

BTW, johnb's post somewhere above was thoughtful and well-reasoned; I can't imagine how we disagreed so much about Tommy Amaker's early tenure at Harvard.

Cool! I'll have to look into it; two of my grandparents attended Trinity College way back when... Two of my son's grandparents also went to Duke, for both undergrad and grad work. (And both of his parents, but that doesn't seem to count anymore. But I still give...)

The weirdest part - my kid used his high school college shopping tool, entered his preferences, and Duke came out on top! We really didn't coach for this. Really! (He's looking for a liberal arts school in the south. He's also taking Miami and New Orleans - Tulane - trips we think are more about the trips and dining...)

-jk

[Nick]

Quote from the Loughlin daughter's Youtube channel:

“I don’t know how much of school I’m gonna attend,” she shared with her nearly 2 million subscribers, after explaining her extensive work schedule. “But I’m gonna go in and talk to my deans and everyone, and hope that I can try and balance it all. But I do want the experience of like game days, partying…I don’t really care about school, as you guys all know.”

Bad optics, as they say.

[Nick]

Also, I just learned that Felicity Huffman is married to William H. Macy, who was not named in the charges. I guess he was out of the loop?

[sagegrouse]

Make no mistake, colleges and universities are businesses, and nowhere are they more "business-y" than in the admissions office. it's a shame, but the way admissions are set up now there is no connection between what the professors what, and what would make up a true intellectually diverse community and what the admissions office wants. The admissions office, with no input from faculty, has decided that what the school needs is extroverted, hyperactive politicians, the prom king and the soccer captain, because they see those people as being more likely to reward the school latter with prestige and money. More subtly their selection rewards early puberty (because you need to more mentally and physically mature to do the things needed for prestigious admissions) and wealth ( as mom needs to give up her career and drive junior all over the place to do camps, clinics, leagues, charity work, or else arrange it for him). There is no place in the admission office for the lower income student who has to work at McDonalds or can only afford school activities orthe poet, the introvert, the dreamer, the original thinker rather than doer, or the late bloomer. And that's the real shame.

Rocketeli -- I disagree respectfully with much of what you have written. And, somehow to say that the admissions office proceeds on its own without guidance??? I'll admit that Christoph Guttentag at Duke is a force to be reckoned with, but... And, the development office is a separate chain of command from admissions -- certainly at Duke and probably every other school.

There clearly was a big problem back in the 1990's and earlier. But I am not sure the same views hold today as held 25 years ago. Were you at Duke for the Reynold Price Founders Day speech in 1992? My daughter was, and I heard from a number of profs before that time that the faculty was fed up with the lack of intellectual interest on the part of the students. I thought things have improved, and I am truly impressed by the students I get to meet.

From Reynolds' obituary:

In a fiery Founders' Day speech in 1992, Price took aim at what he deemed a lack of intellectualism at Duke, describing students as enthusiastic about partying but marred by a "prevailing cloud of indifference, of frequent hostility, to a thoughtful life," reported Duke Magazine. Some university officials cited that speech as an impetus for a greater emphasis on recruiting more intellectual students to Duke, according to the magazine article.

The era of selecting applicants who dabble in everything imaginable and join every club, etc. ended a while ago. My personal view, held with conviction if not supported by true knowledge but having heard briefings from admission offices at a number of schools, pretty much everyone now says they want a widely diverse student body in terms of academic and other interests, and they want students who show a "passion" for something. They are far less interested in students who major in "extracurriculars."

Anyway, your sentiments are certainly headed in the right direction, even if I take a different view of some of the specifics. And, of course, re-reading my post, it wanders all over the place.

Cheers,
Sage Grouse

[freshmanjs]

I think the basket applies for those parents who have given consistently over the years, not just the big lump when a child is applying.

Does anyone here know if Iron Dukes contributions "count" on this front? I've heard they do and I've heard they don't...

[uh_no]

Does anyone here know if Iron Dukes contributions "count" on this front? I've heard they do and I've heard they don't...

i think of you're donating enough to affect admissions, your name is on something on campus. the 10k or whatever to get on the season ticket likely won't make a dent when tuition is 60k...i would guess we're talking millions to get much

[Rich]

i think of you're donating enough to affect admissions, your name is on something on campus. the 10k or whatever to get on the season ticket likely won't make a dent when tuition is 60k...i would guess we're talking millions to get much

I'm not sure I agree. I have a friend who used to work in the Admissions Department at Stanford and he said there was a magic number you could pay each year when your child is born that would most definitely make a difference. He didn't tell me what the # is, but his kid (who is no doubt very bright anyway) goes to Stanford. I imagine it's in the $5-10k per year range over the course of that 15-16 years.

[swood1000]

One news report said that the bribes were paid to charitable organizations and were deducted on income tax returns.