Another scandal in college sports (cheating and bribes)

[duke2x]

A question just occurred to me. Suppose some billionaire has a kid who wants to go to Duke. This kid is clearly not going to be admitted to Duke on his own merit--they're way below the cutoff on whatever scale Duke uses to rank applicants. I'm sure there is some level of donation that would cause Duke to admit this student, as would be the case at just about any school.

My question is, how much money would it take, in the form of a donation, to get this kid admitted? (And how much would that number be at Harvard?)

A score of 400 would require donation of new football uniforms, 300 a new dormitory, and if you spell Duke with a 6, Duke could use a new international airport. I wish I could post YouTube links from the Simpsons.

[wilson]

Lori Loughlin’s Daughter Olivia Jade Detailed How Parents Forced Her into College

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...160906917.html

Aunt Becky is welcome to force me to do pretty much anything.

[WVDUKEFAN]

If you're gonna pay $100K to get your kid into college, why not aim higher than WVU? That's the real question...

I'm sure you meant WFU - WVU wasn't named. Of course someone as intelligent and as highly educated as you couldn't possibly make such a mistake.

[sagegrouse]

I bet none of the students will be expelled. And I'll even bet as a group they don't have significantly worse grades than the student population (i.e. legitimately admitted) at those schools in general. All schools are just dipolma mills now, UNC just admitted it earlier than most. The college diplomas are mostly just status symbols acquired by playing the game effectively and not a reflection of any actual personal academic accomplishment.

Did I hear Georgetown U. fraudlently admitted 12 tennis players over the years. I'll bet their college tennis scores aren't very good.

[Troublemaker]

Aunt Becky is welcome to force me to do pretty much anything.

Have mercy!

[/obligatory]

[robed deity]

Have mercy!

[/obligatory]

She's in big trouble, mister!

[Tooold]

Money given to endowment to get your child admitted to college: generous donation
Money given to an individual to get your child admitted to college: felony

Well said. I know of several people whose children got accepted at prestigious schools, Duke included, even though it was well-known that their grades and scores were sub-par. And then they were placed on competitive teams for which they didn’t seem qualified, followed by a very nice 7 figure, naming donation for athletic facilities. There was never any doubt that the gift was promised before admission (in fact, in these specific cases it was common knowledge in the community). I am sure we all know wealthy or famous people whose children were admitted to good schools without stellar resumes. It happens. When the payment goes to an individual, it is a crime. Otherwise it is just an unfair fact of life.

Now paying to get false test scores and claiming athletic accomplishments that didn’t exist seem particularly dishonest and stupid. And the student applicants had to know...they are submitting the application and are responsible for the veracity of the information in the application.

[Ian]

Well said. I know of several people whose children got accepted at prestigious schools, Duke included, even though it was well-known that their grades and scores were sub-par. And then they were placed on competitive teams for which they didn’t seem qualified, followed by a very nice 7 figure, naming donation for athletic facilities. There was never any doubt that the gift was promised before admission (in fact, in these specific cases it was common knowledge in the community). I am sure we all know wealthy or famous people whose children were admitted to good schools without stellar resumes. It happens. When the payment goes to an individual, it is a crime. Otherwise it is just an unfair fact of life.

Now paying to get false test scores and claiming athletic accomplishments that didn’t exist seem particularly dishonest and stupid. And the student applicants had to know...they are submitting the application and are responsible for the veracity of the information in the application.

Well there is a fundamental difference. It's one thing for a school to sell their admissions, it's another for an employee to do it.
If I give $500 to Walmart, and Walmart ships me a a TV, that's just a business transaction. If I give $300 to a Walmart employee, he takes a TV out of their warehouse and gives it to me, pocketing the money, that's a crime.

[duke79]

If you're gonna pay $100K to get your kid into college, why not aim higher than WVU? That's the real question...

LOL, my thought exactly! I can understand Yale, Stanford, Duke...and maybe a few others. But I'm not paying a $100,000 bribe for my kid to go to WFU!

[Tooold]

Well there is a fundamental difference. It's one thing for a school to sell their admissions, it's another for an employee to do it.
If I give $500 to Walmart, and Walmart ships me a a TV, that's just a business transaction. If I give $300 to a Walmart employee, he takes a TV out of their warehouse and gives it to me, pocketing the money, that's a crime.

Well, that was kind of my point, when I said “if payment goes to individual, it’s a crime. Otherwise, just unfair...”. I think we are in agreement.

[duke79]

This story and thread reminds me of when my daughter was a senior in high school a few years ago. One of her friends in high school who was not a particularly good student (mediocre SAT's and grades) but a decent soccer player, was admitted, early decision, to one of the most prestigious and selective private colleges in the country (that shall remain nameless here). Apparently, everyone in her high school, including her teachers and guidance counselor, were amazed that she was admitted to such a school. I asked my daughter how it happened and my daughter said something about her wealthy step-father, a prominent doctor, "paying" for her to get in (and I know my daughter did not have a direct proof of that - she was just guessing). I just laughed and said to my daughter...NO, you can't "pay" your way into a school like that, unless you give a huge donation to the school (and her step-father was not THAT rich). But now, I wonder if, MAYBE, there was something to my daughter's theory because I was also told that the girl was admitted, at least partly, to play varsity soccer for the school but, of course, she never even tried out for the team (she wasn't that good of a soccer player). So, MAYBE, the wealthy step-father made a "gift" to the soccer coach to tell the admissions office that she needed his step-daughter on the soccer team. Pure speculation here and I HOPE NOT true, but who knows?

[andyw715]

https://fullhouse.fandom.com/wiki/Be...Your_Preschool

“The most important thing in the world right now is their education,” Jesse says. “I’m their father — if I don’t lie for them, who will?”

“I know you want what’s best for them, but you know what, maybe the fast track isn’t it,” Becky says. “I mean, Nicky and Alex are normal and healthy kids, and whatever track they’re on, they seem to be doing okay.”

[johnb]

A question just occurred to me. Suppose some billionaire has a kid who wants to go to Duke. This kid is clearly not going to be admitted to Duke on his own merit--they're way below the cutoff on whatever scale Duke uses to rank applicants. I'm sure there is some level of donation that would cause Duke to admit this student, as would be the case at just about any school.

My question is, how much money would it take, in the form of a donation, to get this kid admitted? (And how much would that number be at Harvard?)

My understanding is that in the normal course of sifting through applications, the Duke Admissions Department pays no attention to prospective donors. They look at many variables to bring in a group that is intensely diverse. Increasingly, Duke seeks out classes that are filled with angular people who--in combination--are diverse, rather than trying to bring together a huge group of well rounded people; this change over the past 30 years is one reason why old alums say that they wouldn't have gotten accepted to Duke; the bright, well rounded kids are often simply rejected at the expense of the kids who have 1 or 2 well developed passions.

But I digress. Re money. When you look at Dukes undergrads, many come from wealthy homes, but if you look at applicants who got rejected, many of those are also from wealthy homes. Being from a wealthy home simply won't get you into Duke.

Being from a VERY wealthy home will get a good student a second look, however, by admin people who do not directly participate in routine admissions. Like people in development throughout the country, they are looking for VERY wealthy parents who have a track record of "generosity." They are not interested in the (many) people who make $750,000/year and donate $50,000/year to their kids' schools; such folks are commonly found at places like Duke, and their wealth did not get their kids into college. Development folks at elite institutions are looking for families who would be likely to contribute 7 or 8 figures while their kids are at Duke. Admission wouldn't be given in return for a bag of cash or a precise dollar amount, and admission would not be offered to applicants who would be unable to manage the workload. These admin types are looking for kids (and families) who would do fine in school and donate at a high level; a small number of them ultimately get placed on a special (and fairly short) list of priority admissions that might also include certain alums and prominent/famous parents, though the kids still need to get vetted by the Admissions folks (presumably through Guttentag directly).

I have mixed feelings about such an arrangement, but I do not think it completely undercuts the campus experience. One ramification of the increasing wealth at the nation's leading colleges and prep schools is broadening of availability and an intensified meritocracy (especially though financial aid). One core result is that these colleges and private high schools have become so intellectually rigorous that many kids don't even try to attend the schools where there are buildings named after their grandparents.

[Rich]

I shared some of the articles about this scandal with my 87 year old father and asked him if that's how I got into Duke (in 1984). His response was, "If I had that kind of money you would have gone to [insert local community college] and I would have a villa in the south of France."

[English]

I shared some of the articles about this scandal with my 87 year old father and asked him if that's how I got into Duke (in 1984). His response was, "If I had that kind of money you would have gone to [insert local community college] and I would have a villa in the south of France."

The university of north carolina?

/Burn

[swood1000]

A capitalistic society will always be run and driven by CAPITAL. People can bash college basketball and the NCAA but the real truth is that pretty much everything in our society is corrupted by money. And if there are loopholes and shortcuts people can take by using that capital to gain an advantage or gain more capital even at the expense of society and democracy,there will always be humans who take that option.

You make it sound as if you think that socialist systems are not corrupted by money. To the extent there is less corruption, it is only because much less wealth is generated and available in a socialist system.

[weezie]

...The kids knew their scores were not legit.

Lori Loughlin’s Daughter Olivia Jade Detailed How Parents Forced Her into College

...As for Loughlin's daughter, she "recently tweeted that YouTube will always be her greatest passion, and she’d rather be vlogging than “sitting in 6 hours of classes straight.”" Impressive...

Do you really think this child of such luminaries knew her score was not legit? Seems like a stretch to picture the poor v-star actually sitting and taking multiple 4 hour exams. I mean, that's a lot of time away from your social media career.
Her parents didn't go to college. Mean old US Atty Office has now crushed the dreams of a 1st Gen college gal!

[kexman]

The linked Wall Street Journal article is old (2003), but Duke let in a fairly substantial number of Development Admits and were quite open about it in the WSJ. Free advertising I guess. I'm not sure what the current policy is in 2019?


https://www.wsj.com/public/resources...Applicants.htm

[luvdahops]

My understanding is that in the normal course of sifting through applications, the Duke Admissions Department pays no attention to prospective donors. They look at many variables to bring in a group that is intensely diverse. Increasingly, Duke seeks out classes that are filled with angular people who--in combination--are diverse, rather than trying to bring together a huge group of well rounded people; this change over the past 30 years is one reason why old alums say that they wouldn't have gotten accepted to Duke; the bright, well rounded kids are often simply rejected at the expense of the kids who have 1 or 2 well developed passions.

But I digress. Re money. When you look at Dukes undergrads, many come from wealthy homes, but if you look at applicants who got rejected, many of those are also from wealthy homes. Being from a wealthy home simply won't get you into Duke.

Being from a VERY wealthy home will get a good student a second look, however, by admin people who do not directly participate in routine admissions. Like people in development throughout the country, they are looking for VERY wealthy parents who have a track record of "generosity." They are not interested in the (many) people who make $750,000/year and donate $50,000/year to their kids' schools; such folks are commonly found at places like Duke, and their wealth did not get their kids into college. Development folks at elite institutions are looking for families who would be likely to contribute 7 or 8 figures while their kids are at Duke. Admission wouldn't be given in return for a bag of cash or a precise dollar amount, and admission would not be offered to applicants who would be unable to manage the workload. These admin types are looking for kids (and families) who would do fine in school and donate at a high level; a small number of them ultimately get placed on a special (and fairly short) list of priority admissions that might also include certain alums and prominent/famous parents, though the kids still need to get vetted by the Admissions folks (presumably through Guttentag directly).

I have mixed feelings about such an arrangement, but I do not think it completely undercuts the campus experience. One ramification of the increasing wealth at the nation's leading colleges and prep schools is broadening of availability and an intensified meritocracy (especially though financial aid). One core result is that these colleges and private high schools have become so intellectually rigorous that many kids don't even try to attend the schools where there are buildings named after their grandparents.

Insightful post with which I generally agree, though with one caveat. I do believe that Duke applicants who are children of or otherwise related to alums go into a different "basket", and that the giving history of those alums is definitely a consideration in the ultimate decision by the Admissions Department. Exactly how important a consideration is shrouded in mystery of course, but I'm pretty sure it's not inconsequential.

[duke79]

Insightful post with which I generally agree, though with one caveat. I do believe that Duke applicants who are children of or otherwise related to alums go into a different "basket", and that the giving history of those alums is definitely a consideration in the ultimate decision by the Admissions Department. Exactly how important a consideration is shrouded in mystery of course, but I'm pretty sure it's not inconsequential.

I believe you are right here. My understanding is that it MAY help an applicant very slightly for admission to Duke if they are a legacy but that it can help a LOT if that legacy's parents or grandparents have given a substantial amount of money to Duke. I don't know what the "substantial" threshold is and I would also guess it might depend on how strong (or weak) a candidate the legacy applicant is. I would guess that the weaker the candidate is, the larger the donations (past or future) would have to be.