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  1. #161
    And just to clarify my above post, I hope Duke isn’t letting people buy their way in, and I don’t believe they are. I think the majority of those admitted who are legacies and/or have parents who make a generous gift are still very well qualified. And I know Duke accepts a huge number of students who rely on financial aid, as well as many who are first generation college students.

  2. #162
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    A while back I asked if the kids in this will be kicked out. Those at USC are about to find out.

    All University of Southern California applicants who are connected to the alleged admissions cheating scheme will be denied admission, university spokesman Gary Polakovic said Wednesday.

    A case-by-case review will be conducted for students who are already enrolled at USC and may be connected to the scheme. USC will "make informed, appropriate decisions once those reviews have been completed. Some of these individuals may have been minors at the time of their application process," he said.
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/13/us/co...day/index.html

    I don't really see why being a minor would matter. If the student in any way knew that he/she was being assisted, then age doesn't matter. (I don't see how the students in some of these cases were clueless, especially if someone was saying you were getting in due to your athletic ability.)
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    I don't really see why being a minor would matter. If the student in any way knew that he/she was being assisted, then age doesn't matter. (I don't see how the students in some of these cases were clueless, especially if someone was saying you were getting in due to your athletic ability.)
    I think this is a desire not to punish a child for the sins of their parent. If a 16 or 17 year old were able to make informed rational decisions we would let them vote, purchase firearms, drink alcohol, rent a car, run for US Senate/President, enroll in the military, get a credit card, etc.

    It wouldn't surprise me if some of these kids had no idea.

  4. #164
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    A while back I asked if the kids in this will be kicked out. Those at USC are about to find out.



    https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/13/us/co...day/index.html

    I don't really see why being a minor would matter. If the student in any way knew that he/she was being assisted, then age doesn't matter. (I don't see how the students in some of these cases were clueless, especially if someone was saying you were getting in due to your athletic ability.)
    Quote Originally Posted by PackMan97 View Post
    I think this is a desire not to punish a child for the sins of their parent. If a 16 or 17 year old were able to make informed rational decisions we would let them vote, purchase firearms, drink alcohol, rent a car, run for US Senate/President, enroll in the military, get a credit card, etc.

    It wouldn't surprise me if some of these kids had no idea.
    USC is one of the largest private universities anywhere, with 19,000 undergrads. IMHO, where the H got lost at a party with the Georgetown tennis team, the outcome and actions will be about USC taking a stand or making a statement than about extra spaces in the student body.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Tooold View Post
    And just to clarify my above post, I hope Duke isn’t letting people buy their way in, and I don’t believe they are. I think the majority of those admitted who are legacies and/or have parents who make a generous gift are still very well qualified. And I know Duke accepts a huge number of students who rely on financial aid, as well as many who are first generation college students.
    Your post here and your earlier one describe Yale to a T, yet one of the bribery cases described was Yale’s former women’s soccer coach (who, once caught, helped the prosecutors) who took $400,000 for a student who didn’t play soccer. Yale doesn’t give athletic scholarships but I understand each athletic team (some more than others) gets a few special requests from the coaches to the admissions office and criteria are relaxed a little for recruited athletes. I have the impression that the Universities trust their head coaches to be honest in designating recruited athletes, that is not identify one who hasn’t even played their sport. That unquestioning trust is over, at least in those universities who have been stung on this.

  6. #166
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudy View Post
    Your post here and your earlier one describe Yale to a T, yet one of the bribery cases described was Yale’s former women’s soccer coach (who, once caught, helped the prosecutors) who took $400,000 for a student who didn’t play soccer. Yale doesn’t give athletic scholarships but I understand each athletic team (some more than others) gets a few special requests from the coaches to the admissions office and criteria are relaxed a little for recruited athletes. I have the impression that the Universities trust their head coaches to be honest in designating recruited athletes, that is not identify one who hasn’t even played their sport. That unquestioning trust is over, at least in those universities who have been stung on this.
    i would be very surprised if duke didn't immediately move to ensure all their i's were dotted. I'd like to believe that Duke had some checks to ensure this didn't happen previously, and would put at least a slice of pie on them being in place now or shortly.


    "If you don't address the things you're not doing well when you're winning the winning will eventually stop."

    -David Cutcliffe

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    i would be very surprised if duke didn't immediately move to ensure all their i's were dotted.
    I suspect a lot of universities will be going back to look at their special-admit process, checking for people who got team- or athletic-department vouches without ever actually showing up on a roster. Any such that they find are gonna be automatically suspect, given that CW-1 apparently was at this for 24 years and left a huge paper trail.

    Thing about this is, it's easy to audit but it's impossible, because of FERPA, for people outside the university to audit. The USC allegations even involve football and basketball, which you'd think would be impossible given the attention recruiting in those sports gets. But it was never necessary in this scam for the kid to be an actual recruit. All it took was a coach who for a price was willing to burn one of his or her special-admit slots, which unlike actual roster or scholarship slots are invisible to the outside world.

  8. #168
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudy View Post
    Your post here and your earlier one describe Yale to a T, yet one of the bribery cases described was Yale’s former women’s soccer coach (who, once caught, helped the prosecutors) who took $400,000 for a student who didn’t play soccer. Yale doesn’t give athletic scholarships but I understand each athletic team (some more than others) gets a few special requests from the coaches to the admissions office and criteria are relaxed a little for recruited athletes. I have the impression that the Universities trust their head coaches to be honest in designating recruited athletes, that is not identify one who hasn’t even played their sport. That unquestioning trust is over, at least in those universities who have been stung on this.
    The Ivy League does not allow athletic scholarships, which means that scholarships for athletes are paid out of the general scholarship funds. There are "protected spots" for athletes, but there are also overall admissions standards defined in terms of an academic index. Basically, exceptions are allowed, but must be offset by more highly qualified athletes.

    The athlete son of a friend went to an on-campus admission session for athletes at an Ivy League school. An assistant dean of admissions came in and told the group, in effect, the only way you are going to get admitted is because you are athletes -- muy estupido, Dean. The kid -- a good student -- was totally turned off and went elsewhere.

    Even at Division III University of Chicago, where there really is no difference in admission standards for football players, there still is a kind of preference. The football coaches can get an immediate decision on a prospective recruit instead of waiting until March or April.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    A while back I asked if the kids in this will be kicked out. Those at USC are about to find out.



    https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/13/us/co...day/index.html

    I don't really see why being a minor would matter. If the student in any way knew that he/she was being assisted, then age doesn't matter. (I don't see how the students in some of these cases were clueless, especially if someone was saying you were getting in due to your athletic ability.)
    I agree. Whether he/she is a minor or not, he/she had to sign the application, which was supposed to be completed by him, NOT his parents. He knows if he is lying about being an athlete. And even w.r.t. fake SAT scores, I doubt that any 17 year old who was happily surprised to get good scores (after requesting the extra time benefit which he had not been receiving earlier in his school career), did not realize something fishy was going on. Unless there are clearly circumstances to prove the student COULD not have known, I think the student needs to learn there are consequences for cheating.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    The Ivy League does not allow athletic scholarships, which means that scholarships for athletes are paid out of the general scholarship funds. There are "protected spots" for athletes, but there are also overall admissions standards defined in terms of an academic index. Basically, exceptions are allowed, but must be offset by more highly qualified athletes.
    There used to be a “formula” at Ivies, and maybe there still is. Each athlete who was admitted had a score (which was based on academics and SATs, to my understanding). The entire team had to average out to some minimum standard, so if a player was admitted with low academic credentials, there had to be others to bring up the average. I know of multiple Ivy athletes who had terrible SATs...not even in the ballpark for an Ivy or
    Duke. But then I also know of some marginal athletes who were part of the team and were known to be there simply to pull up the academic score (and ride the bench).

    My son was recruited by a prominent Ivy, and the coach was absolutely giddy because he would be a starter who also had high SATs. When the coach told my son that none of the players knew where the library was, he crossed that school off his list.

    Everybody games the system. I don’t like it, but it happens. This situation is so much worse as it is clearly cheating and illegal.

  11. #171
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Correct side of the Durham/CH border
    Quote Originally Posted by Tooold View Post
    And just to clarify my above post, I hope Duke isn’t letting people buy their way in, and I don’t believe they are. I think the majority of those admitted who are legacies and/or have parents who make a generous gift are still very well qualified. And I know Duke accepts a huge number of students who rely on financial aid, as well as many who are first generation college students.
    Insights from a former Duke admissions officer. Nothing implicating Duke. Just insight into the approach of a subset of 1%’ers and the slimy dealings of a group of high paid “consultants” out there who facilitate the purchase of access to elite schools.

    https://www.elle.com/culture/celebri...ege-exam-scam/

    P.S. I’m not a reader of Elle magazine... it’s Google’s fault. They dropped the article into my feed. I swear!
    “Coach said no 3s.” - Zion on The Block

  12. #172
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    New Orleans, Louisiana
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Rosenrosen View Post
    Insights from a former Duke admissions officer. Nothing implicating Duke. Just insight into the approach of a subset of 1%’ers and the slimy dealings of a group of high paid “consultants” out there who facilitate the purchase of access to elite schools.

    https://www.elle.com/culture/celebri...ege-exam-scam/

    P.S. I’m not a reader of Elle magazine... it’s Google’s fault. They dropped the article into my feed. I swear!
    There’s another article on that Elle magazine website you might find interesting. Hold on, let me find it...

    Joe Alwyn Is Reportedly Planning to Propose to Taylor Swift 'at the Perfect Time'
    Where Is Captain Marvel's Hair Tie?
    Lady Gaga Made a Pregnancy Announcement Guaranteed to Please Fans
    New York Fashion Week Heralds the Death of the High Ponytail

    Ah, here it is:
    We Joked That USC Stood for University of Spoiled Children

    When I was on campus from 2009 to 2013, the notion of students benefitting from a corrupt admissions process felt as ubiquitous as students taking Adderall or cheating on exams. “Everyone knew, nobody cared,” one friend put it. And it was hard to perceive any regret or embarrassment among the students who benefitted. At a fraternity invite, a “water polo recruit” drunkenly bragged to me that he drew a tree on a college entrance exam, then explained what the tree meant to him. He laughed at what a joke the system was, without acknowledging he was complicit in perpetuating the system, taking away higher education from deserving people.

  13. #173
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by WVDUKEFAN View Post
    Agreed.

    Honestly, I believe the most qualified should be taken first. Period. Acceptance should be based on merit and qualifications. I disagree wholeheartedly that a certain percentage of people should be admitted based on income, race, or any other factors.
    “Merit and qualifications” are difficult to quantify and are clearly impacted by “income, race...and other factors.” In addition, Duke and other elite colleges want a diverse set of students not because it’s PC but because a) diversity leads to friction-filled learning opportunities; b) the world is diverse; and c)other stuff that I’d include if I had more time.

    The saddest part of this mess is that it leads people to think a) admissions is completely rigged in favor of the economic elites, and b) there are elite schools that are better for every child.

    Btw, if visibly rich/powerful people (like movie stars and heads of law firms whose average partner income is $3 million/year and whose own income was likely double that) are willing to clumsily cheat, then they must have thought the admissions system wasn’t adequately rigged in their favor—their own careers and livelihoods are
    now in tatters, not just because they had more money than wisdom/morality but also because they apparently concluded that elite Admissions paid too much attention to all those things that make a school elite (like good students).

  14. #174
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    The Ivy League does not allow athletic scholarships, which means that scholarships for athletes are paid out of the general scholarship funds. There are "protected spots" for athletes, but there are also overall admissions standards defined in terms of an academic index. Basically, exceptions are allowed, but must be offset by more highly qualified athletes.

    The athlete son of a friend went to an on-campus admission session for athletes at an Ivy League school. An assistant dean of admissions came in and told the group, in effect, the only way you are going to get admitted is because you are athletes -- muy estupido, Dean. The kid -- a good student -- was totally turned off and went elsewhere.

    Even at Division III University of Chicago, where there really is no difference in admission standards for football players, there still is a kind of preference. The football coaches can get an immediate decision on a prospective recruit instead of waiting until March or April.
    I am guessing that some of the kids involved in this scandal were not miles away from being qualified for the schools they went to, but just needed the extra push. To dramatically oversimplify things, if a non-athlete needs a 1500 to get into Yale but an athlete needs a 1250, some of these kids might have had a 1300, with which they would have no hope of getting into Yale as a regular student but aren't an outlier as an athlete.

    D3 schools definitely have preferred spots for athletes. The deviation from the qualifications of non-athletes is a lot less, but it definitely exists. Since these kids are not getting athletic scholarships, I am surprised that more kids don't use their athletic ability to get in the door then quit the team once they are on campus. D3 sports are still a huge time commitment and 99.99% of the athletes at this level are not going to make a penny off of their sport. This is not that different from people I knew at Duke whose grades and scores were skewed heavily towards math so they applied to and were accepted by engineering but quickly transferred out once they were on campus as they had no interest but just wanted the best chance of getting into Duke.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    i would be very surprised if duke didn't immediately move to ensure all their i's were dotted...

    Something floated across the screen ticker late last night about a female applicant to Duke having had proctor help? Unless I've missed it here upstream.
    Nothing incites bodily violence quicker than a Duke fan turning in your direction and saying 'scoreboard.'

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    I am guessing that some of the kids involved in this scandal were not miles away from being qualified for the schools they went to, but just needed the extra push. To dramatically oversimplify things, if a non-athlete needs a 1500 to get into Yale but an athlete needs a 1250, some of these kids might have had a 1300, with which they would have no hope of getting into Yale as a regular student but aren't an outlier as an athlete.

    D3 schools definitely have preferred spots for athletes. The deviation from the qualifications of non-athletes is a lot less, but it definitely exists. Since these kids are not getting athletic scholarships, I am surprised that more kids don't use their athletic ability to get in the door then quit the team once they are on campus. D3 sports are still a huge time commitment and 99.99% of the athletes at this level are not going to make a penny off of their sport. This is not that different from people I knew at Duke whose grades and scores were skewed heavily towards math so they applied to and were accepted by engineering but quickly transferred out once they were on campus as they had no interest but just wanted the best chance of getting into Duke.
    These days, Pratt has a lower admissions rate AND higher verbal test scores (of course math too) than Trinity counterparts. (-Pratt '07, when Pratt's admissions rate was higher than Trinity's). Of course, this is skewed by athletes/other preferred admits who don't enroll in Pratt in as large numbers. So, it's perhaps true that an 'unhooked' applicant in Trinity vs. Pratt is about the same although it does seem like Pratt is more numbers-focused.

    But, I agree with your larger point. Definitely. As a decent (but not Duke varisty-quality) tennis player myself, I knew some of my peers who chose to go to schools like Bowdoin as recruited athletes -- they were still pretty strong academically but weren't shoo-ins had it not been for the tennis and it was a reach school for sure. Definitely can be the differentiator or as they call it in admissions, the "hook."

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    These days, Pratt has a lower admissions rate AND higher verbal test scores (of course math too) than Trinity counterparts. (-Pratt '07, when Pratt's admissions rate was higher than Trinity's).
    That is interesting. When I was admitted ED in '08, Pratt still had a higher (I don't remember by how much) admissions rate and I knew a few folks who applied to Pratt on that basis with the intention of switching to Trinity. They typically only took a single engineering class.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by PackMan97 View Post
    Disagree. It's never about the money. It's about the power and prestige. Money chases those things, tries to buy those things, tries to be those things...but at the end of the day, in any society whether its a capitalistic, socialistic, cannibalistic or whatever...power is where it's at.
    I believe it’s different things for different people. It’s a cocktail of greed (money), Power (titles/authority/rank) and status (image, material goods, notoriety).

    And we all know any of the three will corrupt most anyone with ambition because if some is good, more is better and most means I’m better than you...

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by BLPOG View Post
    That is interesting. When I was admitted ED in '08, Pratt still had a higher (I don't remember by how much) admissions rate and I knew a few folks who applied to Pratt on that basis with the intention of switching to Trinity. They typically only took a single engineering class.
    Even in ‘08 when Pratt had a higher admissions rate than trinity (by a small amount), the average SATs at Pratt were higher than those at Trinity. Those admitted to Pratt had significantly higher math scores than the Trinity admits, and fairly similar verbal scores. The thought was that there was at least some “self-selection” going on. Students who did not have really good test scores usually did not choose to apply to Pratt, which resulted in Pratt’s applicant pool having a larger percentage of highly qualified students. I’m not saying that there were not some who did what you are saying, but they still had to have higher scores (and probably a savvy guidance counselor—or a parent who was a Duke Engineer). Yes, there were those who transferred out of engineering, but most of those just didn’t like the workload.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Tooold View Post
    Even in ‘08 when Pratt had a higher admissions rate than trinity (by a small amount), the average SATs at Pratt were higher than those at Trinity. Those admitted to Pratt had significantly higher math scores than the Trinity admits, and fairly similar verbal scores. The thought was that there was at least some “self-selection” going on. Students who did not have really good test scores usually did not choose to apply to Pratt, which resulted in Pratt’s applicant pool having a larger percentage of highly qualified students. I’m not saying that there were not some who did what you are saying, but they still had to have higher scores (and probably a savvy guidance counselor—or a parent who was a Duke Engineer). Yes, there were those who transferred out of engineering, but most of those just didn’t like the workload.
    I suppose it's worth clarifying (and I think this is in keeping with your comments) that the few I knew who switched were very bright and probably had scores more typical of Pratt than Trinity. They just weren't particularly interested in engineering and thought it could present a small admissions advantage.

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