The end of OAD (in a few years)

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

NO NO NO...

Moreover, symbiotic relationships are also known as win/win...and there's nothing inherently evil about win/win relationships.

I like repeated denials in all caps. Really powers the point home.

Calling the existing system a "win/win" ignores the athlete. Yes, it works for the NCAA, the schools, the NFL, the NBA, ESPN, and your local sports bar. It's just those meddlesome players who get screwed.

When you have free labor, it seems there's plenty of money to toss around to all sorts of entities. It seems somehow disingenuous to then also suggest that there's no inherent market value to these players.

[Devil549]

Once the age limit is 18 there will still be OAD just less of them and a high % will be surprises. If a kid or his family is worried about injury then sign out of HS play in G league and take out an insurance policy. Right now the universities can pay for insurance plus give kids free education and expenses to attend their school (might be called cost of attendance or some other NCAA catch word). Universities are making money off of football and men's basketball...without that money it may/willl hurt women’s basketball, softball, baseball ECT.

It may also hurt DII and DIII sports because they benefit greatly from the TV money football and men’s basketball generates for the NCAA and their member institutions. For example in most if not all DIII conferences their conference dues are 10-2O times their NCAA dues. How you may ask because approximately and I am being conservative 95% of the money it takes to run the NCAA comes from the money generated by the bowl games and NCAA men’s basketball tourney. Also frankly DII & DIII use sports to build the student body. I know of a DIII football program in North Carolina that has a goal of a 120 or more roster for football each fall, they run JV and Varsity programs. Several DIII men’s basketball programs also have JV and varsity programs in North Carolina and in Ohio at one time all DIII schools had JV and varsity teams in men’s and women’s basketball, I would be shocked if they still don’t. Many baseball, soccer and softball programs in DIII are starting JV teams.

I know some feel the NBA currently has a free farm system BUT the NCAA and POWER 5 schools as well as all NCAA schools benefit from the OAD rule IMO.

The die hard fans will still follow their favorite school but colleges may lose the casual fan, if so personally I don’t care.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I like repeated denials in all caps. Really powers the point home.

Calling the existing system a "win/win" ignores the athlete. Yes, it works for the NCAA, the schools, the NFL, the NBA, ESPN, and your local sports bar. It's just those meddlesome players who get screwed.

When you have free labor, it seems there's plenty of money to toss around to all sorts of entities. It seems somehow disingenuous to then also suggest that there's no inherent market value to these players.

i will use no caps so as not to offend. i will not repeat myself for the same reason.
but you are simply wrong that the players do not benefit. perhaps you could discuss this with zion, who is going to be infinitely richer the day after he stops playing than he would be going straight to the pros. perhaps you could tell that to the thousands of athletes who are not good enough to really help their team yet get free education, free food, free health care, and so on.
and if the inherent value is there for the players, then i'll wait until the leagues spring up outside of college for these players and see the millions who tune in. or could it be that the inherent value is 70 years of tradition.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

i will use no caps so as not to offend. i will not repeat myself for the same reason.
but you are simply wrong that the players do not benefit. perhaps you could discuss this with zion, who is going to be infinitely richer the day after he stops playing than he would be going straight to the pros. perhaps you could tell that to the thousands of athletes who are not good enough to really help their team yet get free education, free food, free health care, and so on.
and if the inherent value is there for the players, then i'll wait until the leagues spring up outside of college for these players and see the millions who tune in. or could it be that the inherent value is 70 years of tradition.

Okay, you get a thumbs up for using no caps. That was funny.

Why is it okay for the players to be compensated so little when the provide all the labor? What's the magic process that occurs in June making them suddenly worth tens of millions of dollars to the league, and even more to shoe companies?

[Steven43]

I like repeated denials in all caps. Really powers the point home.

Calling the existing system a "win/win" ignores the athlete. Yes, it works for the NCAA, the schools, the NFL, the NBA, ESPN, and your local sports bar. It's just those meddlesome players who get screwed.

When you have free labor, it seems there's plenty of money to toss around to all sorts of entities. It seems somehow disingenuous to then also suggest that there's no inherent market value to these players.

Come on MD 91,92, 01, 10, 15, 19, I don’t think HBCK was even talking to you. Don’t take it personally. Besides, writing in all-caps can be FUN!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Okay, you get a thumbs up for using no caps. That was funny.

Why is it okay for the players to be compensated so little when the provide all the labor? What's the magic process that occurs in June making them suddenly worth tens of millions of dollars to the league, and even more to shoe companies?

Well I'm glad you think a year at Duke is of so little value. I'm glad you think all the food and health care and training in their chosen profession is of so little value. If that's your opinion, makes me wonder why you are even on a college sports forum.

And I like how you casually push aside the value of the exposure these athletes get. Every Duke game is like a paid 40 minute advertisement for Zion as a future endorsement machine.

IOW, I reject every single one of your foundational premises.

[Devil549]

They are compensated for playing by a free education, first class facilities, great coaching, cost of attendance ECT. I for one will be glad when the age goes to 18 as the rhetoric of the poor players not getting paid should go away IMO.

Of course there will still be some...

[HereBeforeCoachK]

They are compensated for playing by a free education, first class facilities, great coaching, cost of attendance ECT. I for one will be glad when the age goes to 18 as the rhetoric of the poor players not getting paid should go away IMO.

Of course there will still be some...

Don't forget all the other fringe benefits...the exposure, which helps pro athletes get endorsements...but also helps non pros in the job market. Who here wants to compete for a job with Jack White, or Jason Goldwire, right after they step off the court in college? How about running the honies, if I might be so blunt.

(I lost a head to head with this at Crazy Zacks in North Myrtle Beach to Dwight Clark, at the time a Clemson football player on spring break. I went to buy her a beer, and when I got back, she was on Dwight's shoulders on the dance floor, and well, you get the idea.)

I certainly don't begrudge any of these benefits...but I have a major problem with people who ignore them while debating this topic.

[WillJ]

Okay, you get a thumbs up for using no caps. That was funny.

Why is it okay for the players to be compensated so little when the provide all the labor? What's the magic process that occurs in June making them suddenly worth tens of millions of dollars to the league, and even more to shoe companies?

A few observations:

1. It cannot be emphasized too much that the rule keeping 18 year olds out of the NBA is an NBA/NBAPA rule, not an NCAA rule.
2. Star 18-year olds could go overseas and get paid good money. Some have done so. The fact that most don't suggests that they get more value from playing on NCAA teams.
3. Nobody watches the G League, and their players are not paid well except for those sent down on NBA contracts.
4. If there were open bidding for NCAA players, people like Zion would make a lot of money. People like Goldwire would make next to nothing. So the system is in part a transfer from star players to less lucrative athletes, both in basketball and in other sports.
5. The fact that nobody watches the G league suggest that the revenue generated by NCAA basketball are not solely attributable to the players...it's the whole ecosystem that includes, as has been noted above, history, institutional identity and rivalries, and many other things. It's true that players like Zion are underpaid vis-à-vis what a free NCAA market would generate, but it's hard to forecast what it would be. Surely more than the cost of a scholarship.
6. Players complain about the NCAA monopoly, but the NBAPA is also a monopoly, as are all unions. That's not to say that the NBAPA is a bad thing, particularly in the presence of a countervailing monopoly in the form of the NBA itself, but they are not quite as wholly dedicated to the free market as they present themselves.
   

[uh_no]

Magic Accounting.

not really. that's the University subsidy to the Athletics department...

[Steven43]

A few observations:

1. It cannot be emphasized too much that the rule keeping 18 year olds out of the NBA is an NBA/NBAPA rule, not an NCAA rule.
2. Star 18-year olds could go overseas and get paid good money. Some have done so. The fact that most don't suggests that they get more value from playing on NCAA teams.
3. Nobody watches the G League, and their players are not paid well except for those sent down on NBA contracts.
4. If there were open bidding for NCAA players, people like Zion would make a lot of money. People like Goldwire would make next to nothing. So the system is in part a transfer from star players to less lucrative athletes, both in basketball and in other sports.
5. The fact that nobody watches the G league suggest that the revenue generated by NCAA basketball are not solely attributable to the players...it's the whole ecosystem that includes, as has been noted above, history, institutional identity and rivalries, and many other things. It's true that players like Zion are underpaid vis-à-vis what a free NCAA market would generate, but it's hard to forecast what it would be. Surely more than the cost of a scholarship.
6. Players complain about the NCAA monopoly, but the NBAPA is also a monopoly, as are all unions. That's not to say that the NBAPA is a bad thing, particularly in the presence of a countervailing monopoly in the form of the NBA itself, but they are not quite as wholly dedicated to the free market as they present themselves.
   

Strong take, thanks.

I hope WillJ is not a creative reference to JWill (Jason Williams). I’ve been so out on that guy ever since he wrote that self-serving, negative, unappreciative article about Duke University and Coach K, AND after he repeatedly over a period of years, and still to this very day, bends over backwards to try to not compliment Duke, AND after he repeatedly looks for any excuse to prop up and praise UNC in some way or another, AND, finally, after his most recent horrific take urging Zion Williamson to quit the Duke basketball team RIGHT NOW. This freaking guy (Williams) is a piece of work. And not in a good way.

[WillJ]

Strong take, thanks. I hope WillJ is not a creative reference to JWill (Jason Williams). I’ve been so out on that guy ever since he wrote that self-serving, negative, unappreciative article about Duke University and Coach K, AND after he repeatedly over a period of years, and still to this very day, bends over backwards to try to not compliment Duke, AND after he repeatedly looks for any excuse to prop up and praise UNC in some way or another, AND, finally, after his most recent horrific take urging Zion Williamson to quit the Duke basketball team RIGHT NOW. This freaking guy (Williams) is a piece of work. And not in a good way.

My handle is my first name and middle initial, which I've been using around here since JWill played. I liked him more then. FWIW, I read his autobiography last year and I don't hate on the guy...we're all complicated.

[Steven43]

My handle is my first name and middle initial, which I've been using around here since JWill played. I liked him more then. FWIW, I read his autobiography last year and I don't hate on the guy...we're all complicated.

You are a kinder, more-forgiving soul than I.

[75Crazie]

Once again, you seem to be cherry picking my arguments, or making straw arguments. The NCAA is not doing this to mold players for pro careers...that is collateral to the mission, and only impacts 1% of the NCAA athletes in those sports. I am in no way defending a system that would be set up as a feeder system to the pros. That's not what this is.

Oh, but that is EXACTLY what the NCAA football and basketball programs are for the P5 conferences. Of course, the NCAA governs various levels and types of college athletics, but the big bucks and publicity are in those two sports for those five conferences.

The other 99% of the athletes benefit from the big revenues from FB and BB because that is how field hockey and swimming teams are paid for.

And my point is that the funding of those other sports are not a justification for the abuses of the two major sports. I would suggest that maybe the total number of other college sports would decrease without that funding, and that the ones that survive would scale down to mostly local exercises and activities … but I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

As for the sham of attending class, I don't think you know for sure that Zion and Cam and RJ and Tre are attending sham classes. I suppose that is possible, but I wouldn't think so, and certainly would not assume it as the basis for an argument.

I never said that they were attending sham classes. I know nothing about those people, to be honest. If I had to guess, I would guess that none of those four have any interest in attending college classes and that they are taking the typical crip athletic classes; if they could attend an independent minor league (something like a viable type of G league) they would take that route towards professional status. But that is just a guess, and for at least one of those four it might well be a wrong guess.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

A few observations:

1. It cannot be emphasized too much that the rule keeping 18 year olds out of the NBA is an NBA/NBAPA rule, not an NCAA rule.
2. Star 18-year olds could go overseas and get paid good money. Some have done so. The fact that most don't suggests that they get more value from playing on NCAA teams.
3. Nobody watches the G League, and their players are not paid well except for those sent down on NBA contracts.
4. If there were open bidding for NCAA players, people like Zion would make a lot of money. People like Goldwire would make next to nothing. So the system is in part a transfer from star players to less lucrative athletes, both in basketball and in other sports.
5. The fact that nobody watches the G league suggest that the revenue generated by NCAA basketball are not solely attributable to the players...it's the whole ecosystem that includes, as has been noted above, history, institutional identity and rivalries, and many other things. It's true that players like Zion are underpaid vis-à-vis what a free NCAA market would generate, but it's hard to forecast what it would be. Surely more than the cost of a scholarship.
6. Players complain about the NCAA monopoly, but the NBAPA is also a monopoly, as are all unions. That's not to say that the NBAPA is a bad thing, particularly in the presence of a countervailing monopoly in the form of the NBA itself, but they are not quite as wholly dedicated to the free market as they present themselves.
   

Thanks for explaining to me that it is an NBA rule.

I was responding to the idea that the relationship is a "win/win" for the NBA and NCAA. That oversimplifies things by completely ignoring the players. The players in the NBA get massive contracts compared to the coaches. The best NCAA coaches get millions of dollars. The players get free tuition and Healthcare and bagels.
Until the turn 19. Then they make tens of millions.

Explain how that isn't artificially depressing their value?

[WillJ]

Thanks for explaining to me that it is an NBA rule.

I was responding to the idea that the relationship is a "win/win" for the NBA and NCAA. That oversimplifies things by completely ignoring the players. The players in the NBA get massive contracts compared to the coaches. The best NCAA coaches get millions of dollars. The players get free tuition and Healthcare and bagels.
Until the turn 19. Then they make tens of millions.

Explain how that isn't artificially depressing their value?

I totally agree with you that the NCAA ban on player compensation (outside of room, board, training, tuition and I guess, insurance) depresses value for many players, perhaps the top 100 in college basketball. For Zion, it's depressed *a lot*. I just think that the whole ecosystem is more complicated than is represented by the mantra of "NCAA screws athletes," because for most of them it's not true.

[JasonEvans]

Look, we can discuss reasonable changes we would like to see to the NCAA's amateurism rules, to the way the NCAA treats revenue sport player, and to the NBA's draft rules all you guys want... but having even a mild discussion that centers around "the NCAA should get out of the major sports business and get back to primarily academics" is a non-starter. No one in a position of power or influence is advocating this and the money NCAA member schools would be giving up would be counted in the billions of dollars every year. While there may be a perfectly reasonable argument that semi-pro college athletics run counter to the overall educational mission of our major universities, saying goodbye to football and basketball is simply is not happening. No way.

[75Crazie]

Jason, I agree that it is pointless to argue. It is obvious that, for the great majority, the ends definitely justify the means … and I find that very sad. So, no more argument from me, sorry to cause this digression.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Look, we can discuss reasonable changes we would like to see to the NCAA's amateurism rules, to the way the NCAA treats revenue sport player, and to the NBA's draft rules all you guys want... but having even a mild discussion that centers around "the NCAA should get out of the major sports business and get back to primarily academics" is a non-starter. No one in a position of power or influence is advocating this and the money NCAA member schools would be giving up would be counted in the billions of dollars every year. While there may be a perfectly reasonable argument that semi-pro college athletics run counter to the overall educational mission of our major universities, saying goodbye to football and basketball is simply is not happening. No way.

Respect, but I don't see anyone here making that argument. Unless I missed it, the discussion has been "are players compensated adequately." I say no.