MBB: Duke 72, unc 88 Post-Game Thread

[DukieInBrasil]

Is this like baseball, where there is some threshhold before it counts as a year of service? While I know this is a binary thing...it's tough to consider 6 minutes "making it to the nba" in a colloquial sense.

yes, getting into a game for 1 second counts as a year of service. And the year isn't over yet, Trevon still has a chance to play more minutes. Same for Amile, who now has 1 yr of NBA service due to playing in a couple of games.
My quick search did not yield info on his contract, but he signed as a free agent, and i assume as a rookie f.a. he won't have much leverage for a while, but it is possible that if he impresses enough for the rest of the year he could get a decent deal, certainly better than the $75K he's (reportedly) paid this year.
Quinn Cook followed a similar path, playing G-league with very limited NBA appearances for a couple of years, made a 2-way contract for better but still limited money, made good on it and then signed a pretty decent deal with GSW.
I don't remember Seth Curry's exact draft results, but he also played G-league with sporadic NBA callups for a couple of years before signing a legit NBA contract, and now he's leading the NBA in 3pt%.

[Steven43]

Affirms what I feel about Kareem. Tells me about what he thinks of Wilt.

When Kareem speaks about his peers I think it has significant relevance, and I see no reason to think his opinions about Wilt as a player were widely divergent from that of the majority of his fellow basketball players. Regardiess, Wilt was an extremely talented athlete who made a significant mark on the sport. And he was certainly an interesting and colorful character.

[uh_no]

I don't remember Seth Curry's exact draft results, but he also played G-league with sporadic NBA callups for a couple of years before signing a legit NBA contract, and now he's leading the NBA in 3pt%.

the rest of it aside, super happy for seth. I don't care what the NCAA says...he's a national champion. He and his brother are just super stand-up guys....i still find the fact that they were both overlooked by big name schools despite their heritage to be the most incredible overlooks in recent memory.

[sagegrouse]

All good points...I think the important part is that there ARE situations where staying could be a good decision, even financially, depending on one's situation.

I agree with you. This is especially true if the player sees himself as a college coach, which most typically requires a college degree. One-and-done -- a degree will never happen; two years -- become much more workable, especially with summer sessions. A player may have close to three year's credit after two years in college.

WRT Tre, I don't know what the family input, especially from Tyus, but it would help to be physically ready for the NBA. Tre seems a bit bulkier than Tyus but another year would make him stronger and more prepared for the NBA.

I don't think the Jones family, esp. with Tyus in the league, has financial needs that would compel Tre to leave.

[sagegrouse]

When Kareem speaks about his peers I think it has significant relevance, and I see no reason to think his opinions about Wilt as a player were widely divergent from that of the majority of his fellow basketball players. Regardiess, Wilt was an extremely talented athlete who made a significant mark on the sport. And he was certainly an interesting and colorful character.

I dunno about that. I heard Bill Russell talk at length about his games against Wilt. He said, more or less, "People don't realize that Wilt was really a sweetheart. We would all beat on him during a game, pushing and elbowing, and, even though he is incredibly strong, he would never hit back."

[Nugget]

Do you think Coach K letting Jack shoot the flagrant foul shots last night was an attempt to let Jack see the ball go through the hoop or was it because he's an 80% FT shooter. Or it could have been both. Maybe the GOAT was thinking down the road and doing whatever he can to get Jack going again. Well, the next opponent is where is troubles began. That's a good place to get it going again. We can all hope. GoDuke!

That was my thought. Otherwise, I'd have expected Cam to be shooting those.

[mkirsh]

I don't think Bolden is a good matchup against this year's UNC team. They are too mobile and too much of a spread team. He'd have been a perfect matchup for Sterling Manley. But Brooks is too quick/energetic for him, and when the Heels went small, he has no chance against Maye. Bolden was reasonably effective at defending Coby White's drives when Duke switched big/small screens. But that meant that Jones had to contend with Brooks or Maye inside, and that was a mismatch.

This is just another example of where Zion would be such a huge plus. He would be able to handle either the 4 or 5. But Maye and Brooks were just too strong for anyone not named Bolden or Williamson, and they were all too quick for Bolden.

I agree with you about when unc plays Maye at the 5, but disagree about Brooks. He gets all his buckets off putbacks and dump offs, which should have allowed Bolden to hedge and recover or drop in pnr and generally hang around the basket to block shots. (It seemed that Tre was fighting over screens last night and not automatically switching 1-5). Bolden has struggled against stretch 5s that make him guard the 3pt line, but that is not Brooks (from what I have seen of him this year).

100% agree about Zion. He is the Swiss Army knife on offense and defense.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

100% agree about Zion. He is the Swiss Army knife on offense and defense.

you mean the Swiss Army Nuke

[UrinalCake]

Did Duval do the right thing leaving? I submit yes, if he never wanted to go to school anyway. Or if he just wanted to get started on his career. Did Jackson do the right thing? Maybe so. Same reasons as Duval, plus he was riding positive expectations going into the draft and made more in one year than many people do in 10+. Did Jones do the right thing? His expectation rating was through the roof after the natty, and I don't see how it would ever have gotten higher.

Here's a serious question - when was the last time a player was projected to go in the first round, came back to school, and significantly improved his draft position? I can think of guys who were projected lottery picks and didn't hurt themselves. I can think of lots of guys who fell. And I can think of guys who weren't projected at all who shot up the following year. But I honestly can't think of any who fit this definition, to the point that they were better off not leaving a year earlier.

[CDu]

I agree with you about when unc plays Maye at the 5, but disagree about Brooks. He gets all his buckets off putbacks and dump offs, which should have allowed Bolden to hedge and recover or drop in pnr and generally hang around the basket to block shots. (It seemed that Tre was fighting over screens last night and not automatically switching 1-5). Bolden has struggled against stretch 5s that make him guard the 3pt line, but that is not Brooks (from what I have seen of him this year).

100% agree about Zion. He is the Swiss Army knife on offense and defense.

The problem with Brooks isn’t when he has the ball. It is that, if he is screening for White, he creates problems. Because Bolden has to hedge hard on Whote to prevent an easy 3, but Brooks is a terrific roll option. And Bolden isn’t quick enough to recover on a guy as athletic as Brooks. So you almost have to switch, which leaves Brooks to roll against Jones, another mismatch. Either that or allow White to get a good look at 3s. Again, Bolden’s lack of mobility is a problem with a guy as mobile off-ball as Brooks.

[jipops]

Does 2010 ring a bell with the triple S attack? Come on. Reddish,Zion, and RJ can provide more than enough output to carry a team

Nope, they can’t. And there is no Lance Thomas, Zoubek, nor freshman Mason Plumlee on this team.

There simply must be contributions on both ends of the floor from other guys. I think Bolden is our only hope to provide that at this point.

[Steven43]

Nope, they can’t. And there is no Lance Thomas, Zoubek, nor freshman Mason Plumlee on this team.

There simply must be contributions on both ends of the floor from other guys. I think Bolden is our only hope to provide that at this point.

Dang, you just depressed me with the harsh — and I think fairly accurate — reality of your comments. I’m not at all confident our prayers for Bolden to come through when we need him most are going to be answered.

[Stray Gator]

I don't recall whether it has already been mentioned, but I'll just note this remarkable coincidence here: So far this season, it appears that Mike Eades has officiated only two ACC games in Cameron: Syracuse and UNC. Here's hoping we don't see him again.

[devildeac]

I don't recall whether it has already been mentioned, but I'll just note this remarkable coincidence here: So far this season, it appears that Mike Eades has officiated only two ACC games in Cameron: Syracuse and UNC. Here's hoping we don't see him again.

Mere coincidence. Weezie did text me during game last PM and used some language that would most certainly not escape the wanikerizer here to describe the certain ref mentioned above. (Yea, I know, the "crew" didn't shoot 8/39 from 3-land and help with the cheats lay-up line but it's worth mentioning in passing at least.)

[Kedsy]

Nope, they can’t. And there is no Lance Thomas, Zoubek, nor freshman Mason Plumlee on this team.

There simply must be contributions on both ends of the floor from other guys. I think Bolden is our only hope to provide that at this point.

They can't? Based on what?

The 2010 team had an overall efficiency of +33.29 (#1 in the country); with an oRating of 121.0 (#1) and a dRating of 87.7 (#5).

The 2019 team has an overall efficiency of +34.12 (#2 in the country); with an oRating of 121.8 (#3) and a dRating of 87.7 (#4).

Those numbers are virtually identical (and are all from Pomeroy, in case you hadn't guessed). But that doesn't seem to be enough for you; you want to see performance from the others as well as the big three, and I'm guessing advanced stats aren't your favorite. So let's break down "big three" vs. "little five," and compare the two teams using simple stats (with the caveat that this year's team plays a faster face, so it's not an entirely apples-to-apples comparison):

BIG THREE

Scheyer/Singler/Smith combined for 53.3 ppg/ 13.4 rpg/ 10.1 apg/ 3.8 spg/ 1.3 bpg, in 108.2 mpg

Barrett/Williamson/Reddish have combined for 59.0 ppg/ 19.8 rpg/ 8.3 apg/ 5.0 spg/ 2.6 bpg in 90.7 mpg

The 2019 big three outscores, outrebounds, outsteals, and outblocks the 2010 big three. Only thing the 2010 big three had more of was assists, and not by much (less than two total assists per game more). And the 2019 does all that in 17.5 fewer minutes per game. Advantage 2019 big three.


LITTLE FIVE

Lance Thomas put up 4.8/4.9/0.3/0.5/0.7 in 25.3 mpg, while Jack White puts up 4.6/5.2/1.0/0.8/1.2 in 23.2 mpg. Small advantage White.

Brian Zoubek put up 5.6/7.7/1.0/0.7/0.8 in 18.7 mpg, while Marques Bolden puts up 5.5/4.6/0.5/0.6/2.0 in 20.1 mpg. Small advantage Zoubek, but only in rebounds (in which the 2019 big three probably have a bigger advantage than Zoubek has over Bolden) and not really in offensive production (other than of course offensive rebounds).

Mason Plumlee put up 3.7/3.1/0.9/0.5/0.9 in 14.1 mpg, while Javin DeLaurier puts up 3.5/3.7/0.5/1.0/1.0, in 13.7 mpg. Close to a wash, but probably small advantage to DeLaurier (though mostly on the defensive end).

Andre Dawkins put up 4.4/1.1/0.3/0.3/0.1 in 12.6 mpg, while Alex O'Connell puts up 4.0/1.6/0.6/0.7/0.0, in 12/6 mpg. Close to a wash, though probably small advantage to O'Connell.

Finally, we come to a one-of-these-things-is-not-like-the-other situation, because the 2010 played four bigs and the 2019 team only plays three, but Miles Plumlee put up 5.2/4.9/0.3/0.5/0.7, in 16.4 mpg while Tre Jones puts up 8.5/3.7/5.4/2.0/0.2 in 32.2 mpg. Hard to compare, but I can't imagine anybody credibly arguing MP1 was a better player than Tre Jones on either offense or defense. Huge advantage Jones.

So, looking at all that, I'd say the 2019 "little five" have an overall advantage over the 2010 "little five," in addition to the "big three" advantage. So frankly, I can't understand what you're talking about?

[SavDukeGrad]

I don’t know if someone has mentioned this in all the depressing news about the game, but did anyone else notice Nassir Little’s stat line? Their top 5 recruit played 11 minutes (8th on the team), with 2 points, 1 rebound. I was surprised he didn’t play more since they played small ball some. I guess he probably does need another year under Roy...

[Steven43]

They can't? Based on what?

The 2010 team had an overall efficiency of +33.29 (#1 in the country); with an oRating of 121.0 (#1) and a dRating of 87.7 (#5).

The 2019 team has an overall efficiency of +34.12 (#2 in the country); with an oRating of 121.8 (#3) and a dRating of 87.7 (#4).

Those numbers are virtually identical (and are all from Pomeroy, in case you hadn't guessed). But that doesn't seem to be enough for you; you want to see performance from the others as well as the big three, and I'm guessing advanced stats aren't your favorite. So let's break down "big three" vs. "little five," and compare the two teams using simple stats (with the caveat that this year's team plays a faster face, so it's not an entirely apples-to-apples comparison):

BIG THREE

Scheyer/Singler/Smith combined for 53.3 ppg/ 13.4 rpg/ 10.1 apg/ 3.8 spg/ 1.3 bpg, in 108.2 mpg

Barrett/Williamson/Reddish have combined for 59.0 ppg/ 19.8 rpg/ 8.3 apg/ 5.0 spg/ 2.6 bpg in 90.7 mpg

The 2019 big three outscores, outrebounds, outsteals, and outblocks the 2010 big three. Only thing the 2010 big three had more of was assists, and not by much (less than two total assists per game more). And the 2019 does all that in 17.5 fewer minutes per game. Advantage 2019 big three.


LITTLE FIVE

Lance Thomas put up 4.8/4.9/0.3/0.5/0.7 in 25.3 mpg, while Jack White puts up 4.6/5.2/1.0/0.8/1.2 in 23.2 mpg. Small advantage White.

Brian Zoubek put up 5.6/7.7/1.0/0.7/0.8 in 18.7 mpg, while Marques Bolden puts up 5.5/4.6/0.5/0.6/2.0 in 20.1 mpg. Small advantage Zoubek, but only in rebounds (in which the 2019 big three probably have a bigger advantage than Zoubek has over Bolden) and not really in offensive production (other than of course offensive rebounds).

Mason Plumlee put up 3.7/3.1/0.9/0.5/0.9 in 14.1 mpg, while Javin DeLaurier puts up 3.5/3.7/0.5/1.0/1.0, in 13.7 mpg. Close to a wash, but probably small advantage to DeLaurier (though mostly on the defensive end).

Andre Dawkins put up 4.4/1.1/0.3/0.3/0.1 in 12.6 mpg, while Alex O'Connell puts up 4.0/1.6/0.6/0.7/0.0, in 12/6 mpg. Close to a wash, though probably small advantage to O'Connell.

Finally, we come to a one-of-these-things-is-not-like-the-other situation, because the 2010 played four bigs and the 2019 team only plays three, but Miles Plumlee put up 5.2/4.9/0.3/0.5/0.7, in 16.4 mpg while Tre Jones puts up 8.5/3.7/5.4/2.0/0.2 in 32.2 mpg. Hard to compare, but I can't imagine anybody credibly arguing MP1 was a better player than Tre Jones on either offense or defense. Huge advantage Jones.

So, looking at all that, I'd say the 2019 "little five" have an overall advantage over the 2010 "little five," in addition to the "big three" advantage. So frankly, I can't understand what you're talking about?

Hmm, I may have to rethink this. I had been on the side that believed the 2010 team got stronger contributions from the non-star players than does the current team. I’m not so sure anymore. I don’t know if this is a case of the statistics being perhaps a bit misleading and not necessarily telling the whole story or what, but the stats are eye-opening. We’ll have to see how this plays out.

[NSDukeFan]

Obviously it was in a loss and included 4 turnovers, but is this the lowest profile 30 point, 10 rebound game ever at Duke?

[dukelifer]

They can't? Based on what?

The 2010 team had an overall efficiency of +33.29 (#1 in the country); with an oRating of 121.0 (#1) and a dRating of 87.7 (#5).

The 2019 team has an overall efficiency of +34.12 (#2 in the country); with an oRating of 121.8 (#3) and a dRating of 87.7 (#4).

Those numbers are virtually identical (and are all from Pomeroy, in case you hadn't guessed). But that doesn't seem to be enough for you; you want to see performance from the others as well as the big three, and I'm guessing advanced stats aren't your favorite. So let's break down "big three" vs. "little five," and compare the two teams using simple stats (with the caveat that this year's team plays a faster face, so it's not an entirely apples-to-apples comparison):

BIG THREE

Scheyer/Singler/Smith combined for 53.3 ppg/ 13.4 rpg/ 10.1 apg/ 3.8 spg/ 1.3 bpg, in 108.2 mpg

Barrett/Williamson/Reddish have combined for 59.0 ppg/ 19.8 rpg/ 8.3 apg/ 5.0 spg/ 2.6 bpg in 90.7 mpg

The 2019 big three outscores, outrebounds, outsteals, and outblocks the 2010 big three. Only thing the 2010 big three had more of was assists, and not by much (less than two total assists per game more). And the 2019 does all that in 17.5 fewer minutes per game. Advantage 2019 big three.


LITTLE FIVE

Lance Thomas put up 4.8/4.9/0.3/0.5/0.7 in 25.3 mpg, while Jack White puts up 4.6/5.2/1.0/0.8/1.2 in 23.2 mpg. Small advantage White.

Brian Zoubek put up 5.6/7.7/1.0/0.7/0.8 in 18.7 mpg, while Marques Bolden puts up 5.5/4.6/0.5/0.6/2.0 in 20.1 mpg. Small advantage Zoubek, but only in rebounds (in which the 2019 big three probably have a bigger advantage than Zoubek has over Bolden) and not really in offensive production (other than of course offensive rebounds).

Mason Plumlee put up 3.7/3.1/0.9/0.5/0.9 in 14.1 mpg, while Javin DeLaurier puts up 3.5/3.7/0.5/1.0/1.0, in 13.7 mpg. Close to a wash, but probably small advantage to DeLaurier (though mostly on the defensive end).

Andre Dawkins put up 4.4/1.1/0.3/0.3/0.1 in 12.6 mpg, while Alex O'Connell puts up 4.0/1.6/0.6/0.7/0.0, in 12/6 mpg. Close to a wash, though probably small advantage to O'Connell.

Finally, we come to a one-of-these-things-is-not-like-the-other situation, because the 2010 played four bigs and the 2019 team only plays three, but Miles Plumlee put up 5.2/4.9/0.3/0.5/0.7, in 16.4 mpg while Tre Jones puts up 8.5/3.7/5.4/2.0/0.2 in 32.2 mpg. Hard to compare, but I can't imagine anybody credibly arguing MP1 was a better player than Tre Jones on either offense or defense. Huge advantage Jones.

So, looking at all that, I'd say the 2019 "little five" have an overall advantage over the 2010 "little five," in addition to the "big three" advantage. So frankly, I can't understand what you're talking about?

That 2010 seemed to get hot at the right time- which is a big part of the tourney success and of course the path opened up a bit for them. The current Duke team is certainly capable but may need to shoot the three more reliably in the post season. I don’t have the stats but my memory suggests that 2010 shot the three better.

[UrinalCake]

Hmm, I may have to rethink this. I had been on the side that believed the 2010 team got stronger contributions from the non-star players than does the current team. I’m not so sure anymore. I don’t know if this is a case of the statistics being perhaps a bit misleading and not necessarily telling the whole story or what, but the stats are eye-opening. We’ll have to see how this plays out.

The 2010 team got virtually nothing on offense outside of the big three. Zoubek set screens and rebounded and might have gotten a putback or two each game. Lance couldn't shoot at all. Now, defensively those two were outstanding, they could hedge on screens and recover to their man. We played a packed in defense yet simultaneously were excellent at defending the three. And we were among the national leaders in offensive rebounding; that plus our three point shooting led to our efficiency rating being so high.

When you think of the tournament run you might remember Dawkins's pair of threes against Baylor and Lance's putback dunk against WVU. You might also think of Lance Thomas as an all-time Duke great. But those are selective memories relative to the season as a whole.