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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by simplyluvin View Post
    For the medical pros out there, if it is a mild knee sprain (MCL), what treatment is there? Can Z play with a brace and come back sooner?
    MCL is the best case scenario (if that's what it is) - it has a good blood supply and good healing potential. Even in the worst case scenario (a grade III sprain - where there's a complete tear of the ligament, i.e. where it's torn in two) it is very rare to need to reconstruct it surgically - maybe 2-3% likelihood. Yes, a player with a MCL could play in a brace and come back sooner (although this is not nearly as common in basketball as football). Pain is generally the rate limiting step. As soon as the athlete has minimal pain and can cut without pain or instability they can play. It would be somewhat similar in that regard to Tre Jones' AC separation.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    he said "strain" though...is there a technical difference?
    Strain is an injury to a tendon, sprain is an injury to a ligament. Tendons attach muscle to bone. Ligaments attach/connect bone to bone.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukehk View Post
    Zion was wearing the PG's.

    However, can you really blame the shoe? It might have been faulty..but I imagine they need to start customising shoes for a 6'8 280 pounder from here on out. Normal shoes just wouldn't be able to take the impact his movements/weight make..
    His shoes are like those old balata golf balls. They need to get replaced at tv timeouts. I hope he is healthy and gets to play in Chapel Hill. A win is a win, but this one has an asterisk by it.
       

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by ndkjr70 View Post
    Is duke a top-20 team without Zion?
    Is this a serious question?

  5. #65

    OAD rules needs to go ASAP.

    Do we as college basketball fans really want to deal with this? At this point I'm completely torn on whether I want Zion to come back this year. I'm mean the part of me that's a Duke fan want him to be back desperately, but if he does I'm going to be holding my breath every time he goes up on one of his jumps fearing that he might land wrong and hurt his knee again. It's so unfair to him and his family if he gets hurt, and it's so unfair to us as Duke fans because the amount of guilt we would feel in that scenario for asking him to comeback would be hard to stomach.

    I just want the whole thing to go away. The NBA needs to change this rule.

  6. #66
    Nike is getting absolutely slaughtered on Twitter....lot of funny memes....

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Is this a serious question?
    Even if we suppose that duke would have to play EVERY game without knowing Zion wouldn't play, and thus not be able to game plan, duke played defense 19 points better than national average today, and offense 10 points worse. That put them at about a +9 AdjEM, or ~75. They would have had to be about 10-12 points better to be top 20. Do I think preparation is worth 10-12 points? I mean we did lose to cuse and then come back and beat UVA without our point guard?

    I think the answer is probably "yes," but I don't think it's so cut and dry. I suppose we'll find out on saturday what kind of schemes K can draw up.
    1200. DDMF.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Coballs View Post
    This never would have happened if we were wearing Big Baller Brand.
    Now THAT was a funny comment. Love it,
       

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    Even if we suppose that duke would have to play EVERY game without knowing Zion wouldn't play, and thus not be able to game plan, duke played defense 19 points better than national average today, and offense 10 points worse. That put them at about a +9 AdjEM, or ~75. They would have had to be about 10-12 points better to be top 20. Do I think preparation is worth 10-12 points? I mean we did lose to cuse and then come back and beat UVA without our point guard?

    I think the answer is probably "yes," but I don't think it's so cut and dry. I suppose we'll find out on saturday what kind of schemes K can draw up.
    I don't know how much stock I put in a one game sample. In the second half of the FSU game (also without Zion), we put up a 1.41 adjusted oRtg.

    I mean, we still have the #1 and #2 2018 recruits (Zion was #4, amazingly), plus a PG who was #13, plus a junior center who was #11 out of high school. Plus another top 35 recruit (Javin) and two wings who are ACC caliber players. Sounds like at least a top 10 team to me.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I don't know how much stock I put in a one game sample. In the second half of the FSU game (also without Zion), we put up a 1.41 adjusted oRtg.

    I mean, we still have the #1 and #2 2018 recruits (Zion was #4, amazingly), plus a PG who was #13, plus a junior center who was #11 out of high school. Plus another top 35 recruit (Javin) and two wings who are ACC caliber players. Sounds like at least a top 10 team to me.
    None of them, with the exception of RJ ( who's just ok) can shoot work a lick. Zion is our only truly efficient offensive option. Without him our offense is going to struggle big time.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Clifton, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by ndkjr70 View Post
    Is duke a top-20 team without Zion?
    Do you think a team with Coach K, two consensus top five picks in the upcoming NBA draft, a defensive player of the year candidate (who also owns a historic assist-turnover ratio), and multiple other players with NBA potential is worthy of top 20 consideration?

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I don't know how much stock I put in a one game sample. In the second half of the FSU game (also without Zion), we put up a 1.41 adjusted oRtg.

    I mean, we still have the #1 and #2 2018 recruits (Zion was #4, amazingly), plus a PG who was #13, plus a junior center who was #11 out of high school. Plus another top 35 recruit (Javin) and two wings who are ACC caliber players. Sounds like at least a top 10 team to me.
    Given that we know we're a 122 team with zion, we can use that as a pretty reasonable upper bound WITHOUT zion...unless we think there is a chance we actually ARE a better offensive team without zion...which I don't think is a particularly reasonable assumption.

    So the best we can say is that our intrinsic offense without zion is bounded between 122 and 94 (unless you think we're actually WORSE than that). Even at halfway, we're looking at 108, which is still borderline top 20 (something like 17-18 I think). It looks even worse if we take out the 3.5 point advantage we'd expect for having played at home.

    So while we SHOULD be a top 20 team, we should have been in 2016 and 2017 as well, but were not far off.

    ACC caliber doesn't mean much, IMO, when all those caliber players seem to be so ineffective on the offensive end. Fact of the matter is we had exactly 2 guys who contributed scoring in the halfcourt, and UNC could dedicate pretty much everything to stopping those two (and they still combined for 60 points...just nuts). IMO those role players simply don't contribute enough offense to offset those 2 top scorers to say with any confidence that we would definitely be top 20 without zion. Eventually, the scoring needs to come from somewhere...and tonight, it didn't.
    1200. DDMF.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I don't know how much stock I put in a one game sample. In the second half of the FSU game (also without Zion), we put up a 1.41 adjusted oRtg.

    I mean, we still have the #1 and #2 2018 recruits (Zion was #4, amazingly), plus a PG who was #13, plus a junior center who was #11 out of high school. Plus another top 35 recruit (Javin) and two wings who are ACC caliber players. Sounds like at least a top 10 team to me.
    Keds - No one cares right now. Please stop copy/pasting/disagreeing for one night. The loss of Zion in the first 33 seconds obviously completely altered tonight's game, and until we know how severe his injury is, we're all in a state of shock. Let it go man.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by cptnflash View Post
    Keds - No one cares right now. Please stop copy/pasting/disagreeing for one night. The loss of Zion in the first 33 seconds obviously completely altered tonight's game, and until we know how severe his injury is, we're all in a state of shock. Let it go man.
    I chortled...not because I agree...but because if there's one person who is decidedly LESS affected by the kinds of emotions you ascribe to all of, it's Kedsy.

    And if there's one person who is generating massive amounts of unique content here as opposed to the "copy/pasta" cliches often parroted, it's Kedsy.

    If you can't deal with someone posting stats due to your emotional state, then perhaps you should take a breather from DBR, let alone disparage said posts.
    1200. DDMF.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    I chortled...not because I agree...but because if there's one person who is decidedly LESS affected by the kinds of emotions you ascribe to all of, it's Kedsy.

    And if there's one person who is generating massive amounts of unique content here as opposed to the "copy/pasta" cliches often parroted, it's Kedsy.

    If you can't deal with someone posting stats due to your emotional state, then perhaps you should take a breather from DBR, let alone disparage said posts.
    I don’t see Kedsy’s comments as being particularly controversial or something that should have elicited a strong emotional response. Now, I’m not big on assigning credit, or lack thereof, to players simply based on high school ranking, as said rankings are quite regularly shown to be off-base. But, I do see where he’s coming from and on the surface it appears to have merit.
    Oh, and I would like to hear more about those copy/pasta cliches to which you alluded.
       

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by UNCfan View Post
    His shoes are like those old balata golf balls. They need to get replaced at tv timeouts. I hope he is healthy and gets to play in Chapel Hill. A win is a win, but this one has an asterisk by it.
    Don't even think there should be an asterisk. As you said, a win is a win. We play 12 guys. Not one. You guys won fair and square.

    I just hope we have our full team back for the rematch! That will be the matchup everyone wants to watch.

  17. #77

    support and a prayer

    wearing my Zion tee shirt today in solidarity

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    Nike issues statement and their shares are down in pre-market trading with commentary tying to Zion's shoe explosion.

    I thought the latter was a bit silly but considering the mocking memes and social viralit-y of the moment, there's legitimate damage being done to Nike's brand that could translate to sales dips for the PG 2.5 shoes...

  19. #79
    I find it quite bizarre that Williamson makes three (presumed) consecutive Duke number one picks who have suffered leg injuries during their freshman seasons.

    Brand came back. As did Irving. So, I suppose hope should remain for Williamson as well.

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    Even if we suppose that duke would have to play EVERY game without knowing Zion wouldn't play, and thus not be able to game plan, duke played defense 19 points better than national average today, and offense 10 points worse. That put them at about a +9 AdjEM, or ~75. They would have had to be about 10-12 points better to be top 20. Do I think preparation is worth 10-12 points? I mean we did lose to cuse and then come back and beat UVA without our point guard?

    I think the answer is probably "yes,"
    but I don't think it's so cut and dry. I suppose we'll find out on saturday what kind of schemes K can draw up.
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    Given that we know we're a 122 team with zion, we can use that as a pretty reasonable upper bound WITHOUT zion...unless we think there is a chance we actually ARE a better offensive team without zion...which I don't think is a particularly reasonable assumption.

    So the best we can say is that our intrinsic offense without zion is bounded between 122 and 94 (unless you think we're actually WORSE than that). Even at halfway, we're looking at 108, which is still borderline top 20 (something like 17-18 I think). It looks even worse if we take out the 3.5 point advantage we'd expect for having played at home.

    So while we SHOULD be a top 20 team, we should have been in 2016 and 2017 as well, but were not far off.
    What if additionally, Duke just underperformed tonight? It seems really unlikely to me that if we played this game 1,000 times without Zion, UNC would average a 16-pt victory. So, we don't need gameplanning to be worth 16 points or whatever. We need Duke to have underperformed by a certain amount of points and (separately) time to gameplan to be worth a certain amount of points.

    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    ACC caliber doesn't mean much, IMO, when all those caliber players seem to be so ineffective on the offensive end. Fact of the matter is we had exactly 2 guys who contributed scoring in the halfcourt, and UNC could dedicate pretty much everything to stopping those two (and they still combined for 60 points...just nuts). IMO those role players simply don't contribute enough offense to offset those 2 top scorers to say with any confidence that we would definitely be top 20 without zion. Eventually, the scoring needs to come from somewhere...and tonight, it didn't.
    This analysis, I like much better. I would agree we need to get Tre scoring more as the (now) 3rd option, and we probably need Jack or Alex to hit threes. Both seem doable to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Do we as college basketball fans really want to deal with this? At this point I'm completely torn on whether I want Zion to come back this year. I'm mean the part of me that's a Duke fan want him to be back desperately, but if he does I'm going to be holding my breath every time he goes up on one of his jumps fearing that he might land wrong and hurt his knee again. It's so unfair to him and his family if he gets hurt, and it's so unfair to us as Duke fans because the amount of guilt we would feel in that scenario for asking him to comeback would be hard to stomach.

    I just want the whole thing to go away. The NBA needs to change this rule.
    I wouldn't speak for all Duke fans because I don't think you're even close to representing the majority here. A small percentage of Duke fans, sure, but personally I think your post is weird. Do you not live in fear when RJ and Cam play then? They are worth very conservatively at least 8 million (the guarantee for the #7 pick in the draft), or is there a certain earnings threshold that needs to be crossed before you feel bad? Tre Jones is worth at least $3 million and like Zion has already gotten injured this season -- do you fear for him? And if Jack White got hurt, wouldn't that suck, too? Or does one need to be a surefire NBA pro for you to feel bad? (Additionally, it's just really unlikely for Zion to suffer an injury that would prevent him from being a rich man, and I'm not talking about insurance.)

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