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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Mobile, Alabama

    Interesting statistical question

    Duke has already played two conference games against teams ranked 1st or tied for 1st this season: winning both games against UVa. Theoretically, Duke could play two more times against teams ranked 1st or tied for 1st in the conference (UNC). Has any team ever won 4 conference games against teams ranked 1st or tied for 1st in the league?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by rtnorthrup View Post
    Duke has already played two conference games against teams ranked 1st or tied for 1st this season: winning both games against UVa. Theoretically, Duke could play two more times against teams ranked 1st or tied for 1st in the conference (UNC). Has any team ever won 4 conference games against teams ranked 1st or tied for 1st in the league?
    Trivially, the answer to this is almost certainly yes. Even if you discount that everyone begins tied for the #1 spot, after just one game, half of them are. Co-leaders are common through much of the early schedule. In order to have a meaningful metric, you'd have to specify some kind of limiting criteria to make it meaningful (say, alone or tied for the league lead after the halfway point [Duke would not qualify, since the first UVA win was only 5 games into the ACC season], or at least tied for the ACC lead and ranked in the DI top 10 [Duke might qualify, if we win and UNCheat doesn't drop in national or ACC ranking before we get to them]). Then of course you'd have to select criteria that aren't just specific to the team you are interested in because you want a good result to "prove" your point. What was the stat about Haley Gorecki I was hearing last week? I think it was that she was the only player in the ACC to be averaging 18 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists, and 3 steals (or something like that - not sure about the actual numbers). When you get a criteria list long and that specific enough, it tends to just prove that all players (or teams) are different, rather than that player X (team X) is awesome.

    Statistically proving awesomeness is actually kind of hard.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    Trivially, the answer to this is almost certainly yes. Even if you discount that everyone begins tied for the #1 spot, after just one game, half of them are. Co-leaders are common through much of the early schedule. In order to have a meaningful metric, you'd have to specify some kind of limiting criteria to make it meaningful (say, alone or tied for the league lead after the halfway point [Duke would not qualify, since the first UVA win was only 5 games into the ACC season], or at least tied for the ACC lead and ranked in the DI top 10 [Duke might qualify, if we win and UNCheat doesn't drop in national or ACC ranking before we get to them]). Then of course you'd have to select criteria that aren't just specific to the team you are interested in because you want a good result to "prove" your point. What was the stat about Haley Gorecki I was hearing last week? I think it was that she was the only player in the ACC to be averaging 18 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists, and 3 steals (or something like that - not sure about the actual numbers). When you get a criteria list long and that specific enough, it tends to just prove that all players (or teams) are different, rather than that player X (team X) is awesome.

    Statistically proving awesomeness is actually kind of hard.
    True...lotta games every season between 1-0 and 2-0 teams and so forth...
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK View Post
    True...lotta games every season between 1-0 and 2-0 teams and so forth...
    I think the OP might be on to something, though, because the number of teams sharing the top spot begins to quickly fall off. So to reach having played and beaten 4 teams that are at least tied for first gets pretty tricky, unless you are in a season with an incredible amount of parity. It takes both having a really good team, and a schedule that is lucky enough to make it work out. Teams that only play either unc or UVA only once don't get that chance. In fact, neither the Heels nor the Cavaliers get that chance this season because they only play each other once.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    Trivially, the answer to this is almost certainly yes. Even if you discount that everyone begins tied for the #1 spot, after just one game, half of them are. Co-leaders are common through much of the early schedule. In order to have a meaningful metric, you'd have to specify some kind of limiting criteria to make it meaningful (say, alone or tied for the league lead after the halfway point [Duke would not qualify, since the first UVA win was only 5 games into the ACC season], or at least tied for the ACC lead and ranked in the DI top 10 [Duke might qualify, if we win and UNCheat doesn't drop in national or ACC ranking before we get to them]). Then of course you'd have to select criteria that aren't just specific to the team you are interested in because you want a good result to "prove" your point. What was the stat about Haley Gorecki I was hearing last week? I think it was that she was the only player in the ACC to be averaging 18 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists, and 3 steals (or something like that - not sure about the actual numbers). When you get a criteria list long and that specific enough, it tends to just prove that all players (or teams) are different, rather than that player X (team X) is awesome.

    Statistically proving awesomeness is actually kind of hard.
    You might want to take a peak at the Zion thread.
    “Those two kids, they’re champions,” Krzyzewski said of his senior leaders. “They’re trying to teach the other kids how to become that, and it’s a long road to become that.”

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    I think the OP might be on to something, though, because the number of teams sharing the top spot begins to quickly fall off. So to reach having played and beaten 4 teams that are at least tied for first gets pretty tricky, unless you are in a season with an incredible amount of parity. It takes both having a really good team, and a schedule that is lucky enough to make it work out. Teams that only play either unc or UVA only once don't get that chance. In fact, neither the Heels nor the Cavaliers get that chance this season because they only play each other once.
    UNC has a chance to do the same thing: they beat NC State and Va Tech when each was tied for first, and will get Duke twice.

    Though it's worth noting that (1) UNC has to beat UVa for this to be relevant for us, and (2) if we beat UNC this weekend, it's less likely that UNC will be in or tied for first the next time we play them.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by NSDukeFan View Post
    You might want to take a peak at the Zion thread.
    I said "hard". But sometimes the awesomeness is so awesome, it just kinda falls off the page.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    I was gonna post a question, and this thread is on a similar track.

    "How many times has a Final Four match-up been the FOURTH meeting between two teams?"

    I found one, and it wasn't what I expected. I expected Georgetown-Villanova in 1985 -- but they only played three times. One case was Georgetown-St. John's in 1985, where Georgetown won the national semis beating St. John's at Rupp Arena, after beating St. John's in the Big East finals at MSG. The two teams split in the regular season, each winning on the other's home court (well, Capital Centre and MSG).

    I also thought there might have been four games between Virginia and UNC in 1981, when they met in the Final Four -- but the two teams did not play at the ACC's.

    Also, there are many examples, I expect, back in the days of the Dixie Classic and the Big Four tournament, because the Big Four could play three times in the regular season and again in the ACC's -- which is why I specified "had to meet in the Final Four." I can't remember when the Big Four stopped, but Duke and UNC played four times in 1978-1979, splitting the games.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    UNC has a chance to do the same thing: they beat NC State and Va Tech when each was tied for first, and will get Duke twice.

    Though it's worth noting that (1) UNC has to beat UVa for this to be relevant for us, and (2) ̶i̶f̶ when we beat UNC this weekend, it's less likely that UNC will be in or tied for first the next time we play them.
    FIFY
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I was gonna post a question, and this thread is on a similar track.

    "How many times has a Final Four match-up been the FOURTH meeting between two teams?"

    I found one, and it wasn't what I expected. I expected Georgetown-Villanova in 1985 -- but they only played three times. One case was Georgetown-St. John's in 1985, where Georgetown won the national semis beating St. John's at Rupp Arena, after beating St. John's in the Big East finals at MSG. The two teams split in the regular season, each winning on the other's home court (well, Capital Centre and MSG).

    I also thought there might have been four games between Virginia and UNC in 1981, when they met in the Final Four -- but the two teams did not play at the ACC's.

    Also, there are many examples, I expect, back in the days of the Dixie Classic and the Big Four tournament, because the Big Four could play three times in the regular season and again in the ACC's -- which is why I specified "had to meet in the Final Four." I can't remember when the Big Four stopped, but Duke and UNC played four times in 1978-1979, splitting the games.

    I'd like our chances over UNC in the final four this year
    Zion Williamson broke my brain.

    "If you don't address the things you're not doing well when you're winning the winning will eventually stop."

    -David Cutcliffe

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I was gonna post a question, and this thread is on a similar track.

    "How many times has a Final Four match-up been the FOURTH meeting between two teams?"

    I found one, and it wasn't what I expected. I expected Georgetown-Villanova in 1985 -- but they only played three times. One case was Georgetown-St. John's in 1985, where Georgetown won the national semis beating St. John's at Rupp Arena, after beating St. John's in the Big East finals at MSG. The two teams split in the regular season, each winning on the other's home court (well, Capital Centre and MSG).

    I also thought there might have been four games between Virginia and UNC in 1981, when they met in the Final Four -- but the two teams did not play at the ACC's.

    Also, there are many examples, I expect, back in the days of the Dixie Classic and the Big Four tournament, because the Big Four could play three times in the regular season and again in the ACC's -- which is why I specified "had to meet in the Final Four." I can't remember when the Big Four stopped, but Duke and UNC played four times in 1978-1979, splitting the games.
    Well, the first that comes to mind would be:

    Saturday, January 27, 2001 in College Park
    #2 Duke v. #8 Maryland - W, 98-96

    Tuesday, February 27, 2001 in Durham
    #2 Duke v. #16 Maryland - L, 80-91

    Saturday, March 10, 2001 in Atlanta (ACC semifinal)
    #3 Duke v. #11 Maryland - W, 84-82

    Saturday, March 31, 2001 in Minneapolis (National semifinal)
    #1 Duke v. #11 Maryland - W, 95-84

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I was gonna post a question, and this thread is on a similar track.

    "How many times has a Final Four match-up been the FOURTH meeting between two teams?"

    I found one, and it wasn't what I expected. I expected Georgetown-Villanova in 1985 -- but they only played three times. One case was Georgetown-St. John's in 1985, where Georgetown won the national semis beating St. John's at Rupp Arena, after beating St. John's in the Big East finals at MSG. The two teams split in the regular season, each winning on the other's home court (well, Capital Centre and MSG).

    I also thought there might have been four games between Virginia and UNC in 1981, when they met in the Final Four -- but the two teams did not play at the ACC's.

    Also, there are many examples, I expect, back in the days of the Dixie Classic and the Big Four tournament, because the Big Four could play three times in the regular season and again in the ACC's -- which is why I specified "had to meet in the Final Four." I can't remember when the Big Four stopped, but Duke and UNC played four times in 1978-1979, splitting the games.
    Apologies if I missed this but your search for Final Four matchups where it was the 4th meeting between teams was exclusive of Duke-Maryland in 2001 because that was assumed, right?

    EDIT: credit to BLPOG for faster fingers
    Coach K on Kyle Singler - "What position does he play? ... He plays winner."

    "Duke is never the underdog" - Quinn Cook

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