Interesting info on Barrett

[kako]

From The Athletic on Barrett, talking draft projections:

In the last quarter century of college basketball, no high-major player has averaged at least 23 points, six rebounds, and four assists in a season. That Barrett is averaging 23.9 points, 6.7 rebounds and 4.0 assists a night at 18 years old while playing against one of the toughest schedules in the country shouldn’t be discounted.

https://theathletic.com/780756/2019/...rce=dailyemail
(pay site, highly recommended)

Zion is listed as #1, RJ is listed as #2. Cam is listed as #4.

We all get gaga over Zion (rightfully so). But if Zion wasn't a Devil, we'd be going crazy over RJ day-in, day-out. He'd probably be scoring even more, given the additional shots that would be available.

Still love the "Maple Mamba" sign that was on TV.

9F

[uh_no]

From The Athletic on Barrett, talking draft projections:

In the last quarter century of college basketball, no high-major player has averaged at least 23 points, six rebounds, and four assists in a season. That Barrett is averaging 23.9 points, 6.7 rebounds and 4.0 assists a night at 18 years old while playing against one of the toughest schedules in the country shouldn’t be discounted.

https://theathletic.com/780756/2019/...rce=dailyemail
(pay site, highly recommended)

Zion is listed as #1, RJ is listed as #2. Cam is listed as #4.

We all get gaga over Zion (rightfully so). But if Zion wasn't a Devil, we'd be going crazy over RJ day-in, day-out. He'd probably be scoring even more, given the additional shots that would be available.

Still love the "Maple Mamba" sign that was on TV.

9F

I think the stats like "nobody has averaged THESE specific amounts of these specific stats" are somewhat overvalued, since at some point, every player is unique...so the more qualifiers you add, the less useful it becomes...it's kind of like filing patents...everything is novel to some degree, it's just whether the novelty is also general enough to be useful IP.

anyway

he's a fantastic player, and I didn't realize his assist count was so high. With his consistency on the pull up 15' jumper, this guy is going to do well. He clearly has spurts of inconsistency in his efficiency, but he also has games where he can be highly efficient...and he'll just get better at his decision making.

I do go crazy over him. he's a fantastic player, and we're lucky that we get to see these guys on the floor at the same time.

[Acymetric]

I think the stats like "nobody has averaged THESE specific amounts of these specific stats" are somewhat overvalued, since at some point, every player is unique...so the more qualifiers you add, the less useful it becomes...it's kind of like filing patents...everything is novel to some degree, it's just whether the novelty is also general enough to be useful IP.

anyway

he's a fantastic player, and I didn't realize his assist count was so high. With his consistency on the pull up 15' jumper, this guy is going to do well. He clearly has spurts of inconsistency in his efficiency, but he also has games where he can be highly efficient...and he'll just get better at his decision making.

I do go crazy over him. he's a fantastic player, and we're lucky that we get to see these guys on the floor at the same time.

Agree with this. Anecdotal evidence: You hear "first player to average x, y, z [, q, r...]" with the possible addendum of "while also [some other trivia/stat]" all the time. Like they have a state like that for someone on almost every team anywhere it seems like.

[JasonEvans]

He'd probably be scoring even more, given the additional shots that would be available.

Love me some RJ, for sure. He's going to be a fabulous pro and he is one of the best slashers I've ever seen wear a Duke uniform.

But "more shots" may not be the best thing to wish for when it comes to RJ. He's averaging 19.5 FGA per game. I am not sure what the all-time record is at Duke, but I suspect he is going to own it when the season is done. I went back over many years and the only guy who comes anywhere close to 19.5 FGA per game is JJ's senior season when he averaged 17.9 FGA. His EffFG% of 50.5 is fine, but not great, and he has not been the most efficient guy this season. The prospect of him shooting even more is not something that seems like it would lead to more success by the team.

[BeachBlueDevil]

A buddy of mine and fellow Duke fan were having a couple beers the other night and talking about the current Duke team and he asked me if I thought Zion should be the #1 pick in the draft.

I started to answer "yes" without much thought. I paused and I replied with, "I think I'd take Zion but RJ would really be tempting". I then went on to explain that I really think RJ's game is going to translate almost right away to the NBA whereas I think Zion will have a little more work to do. This answer came on the heels of the UVA game and what RJ did without Tre was really eye opening to me and showed that he very well could become a point guard in the NBA with the current way the game is trending.

[uh_no]

Love me some RJ, for sure. He's going to be a fabulous pro and he is one of the best slashers I've ever seen wear a Duke uniform.

But "more shots" may not be the best thing to wish for when it comes to RJ. He's averaging 19.5 FGA per game. I am not sure what the all-time record is at Duke, but I suspect he is going to own it when the season is done. I went back over many years and the only guy who comes anywhere close to 19.5 FGA per game is JJ's senior season when he averaged 17.9 FGA. His EffFG% of 50.5 is fine, but not great, and he has not been the most efficient guy this season. The prospect of him shooting even more is not something that seems like it would lead to more success by the team.

Especially when the guy playing opposite him is the most efficient player in the country with usage > 24%....by a huge margin....the margin over players with >28% usage is even hugerer.

[TeacherTom]

Plus, we still have lots of games to watch the young man's excellence. We are all so fortunate!

[jimsumner]

Love me some RJ, for sure. He's going to be a fabulous pro and he is one of the best slashers I've ever seen wear a Duke uniform.

But "more shots" may not be the best thing to wish for when it comes to RJ. He's averaging 19.5 FGA per game. I am not sure what the all-time record is at Duke, but I suspect he is going to own it when the season is done. eam.

Dick Groat averaged 23.3 FGA/G in 1952. He also averaged 9.4 FT/G.

[roywhite]

Dick Groat averaged 23.3 FGA/G in 1952. He also averaged 9.4 FT/G.

Art Heyman was another high volume shooter. Averaged 20.0 FGA/G over his career. Details here:

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb...-heyman-1.html

[kako]

But "more shots" may not be the best thing to wish for when it comes to RJ.

Not saying he should shoot more, I don't *wish* for more shots from Barrett. Just saying that if Zion wasn't on the team, his scoring average would probably be higher since there would be more to go around. Admittedly not reality, but it came to mind.

9F

[jimsumner]

Not saying he should shoot more, I don't *wish* for more shots from Barrett. Just saying that if Zion wasn't on the team, his scoring average would probably be higher since there would be more to go around. Admittedly not reality, but it came to mind.

9F

I suspect Reddish is the player whose usage rate would be much higher in Williamson's absence.

[cato]

Love me some RJ, for sure. He's going to be a fabulous pro and he is one of the best slashers I've ever seen wear a Duke uniform.

But "more shots" may not be the best thing to wish for when it comes to RJ. He's averaging 19.5 FGA per game. I am not sure what the all-time record is at Duke, but I suspect he is going to own it when the season is done. I went back over many years and the only guy who comes anywhere close to 19.5 FGA per game is JJ's senior season when he averaged 17.9 FGA. His EffFG% of 50.5 is fine, but not great, and he has not been the most efficient guy this season. The prospect of him shooting even more is not something that seems like it would lead to more success by the team.

I have always wondered what Grant Hill would have been like if he had been “more selfish” in hunting his own shot. I feel like RJ is the best view of that to date. FWIW, here are Grant’s senior numbers, when he and Capel were leading the team in assists:

17.4 points (13.9 FGA), 6.9 rebounds, 5.2 assists. EffFG% of 50.3.

What is my takeaway? I bet the current trend holds, with RJ taking slightly fewer shots per game, Zion taking more and me being amazed that these two kids are producing at the level of the very best Duke players of the past, even my personal nominee for best Blue Devil: Grant Hill.

[kako]

A buddy of mine and fellow Duke fan were having a couple beers the other night and talking about the current Duke team and he asked me if I thought Zion should be the #1 pick in the draft.

I started to answer "yes" without much thought. I paused and I replied with, "I think I'd take Zion but RJ would really be tempting". I then went on to explain that I really think RJ's game is going to translate almost right away to the NBA whereas I think Zion will have a little more work to do. This answer came on the heels of the UVA game and what RJ did without Tre was really eye opening to me and showed that he very well could become a point guard in the NBA with the current way the game is trending.

I tend to agree. Zion will put butts in seats, but the size, speed and quickness in the NBA is much higher than college. I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if Zion can dominate in the Association like he can in the NCAAs. He also needs a more reliable outside shot to compete in today's NBA. I hope he's the 2nd coming of LeBron (certainly the Cavs might, as they are in the lottery lead), but that's not a given. Barrett already plays a NBA game, his ability to get buckets in traffic without bullying his way to the hoop is more NBA ready. He also has the ball-handling skills as you mentioned. Plus, Zion's size ratio (bulk to height) may eventually be an injury issue with all the power moves he does (knock on wood for the kid). All that being said, I think there's little way a GM for one of the worst teams in the NBA can pass on Zion without a riot from their fan base. Assuming he stays healthy, he's going #1.

9F

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Zion is listed as #1, RJ is listed as #2. Cam is listed as #4.

We all get gaga over Zion (rightfully so). But if Zion wasn't a Devil, we'd be going crazy over RJ day-in, day-out. He'd probably be scoring even more, given the additional shots that would be available.

9F

I don't think he'd be scoring more without Zion. I think he scores a little better when he shoots a little less and Zion is more of a focus. One case in point is the 3 on 1 break Tre led against Tech...Zion on the left, RJ on the right...before Tre even did anything, the Tech defender had shifted way over to Zion's side...it gave Tre an easy assist and RJ an easy slam...the Tech guy cheated so far over he couldn't even pretend to contest RJ. To me, that's the Duke season in a microcosm...Zion attracts all eyes all the time...makes life easier for everybody else.

But even in a Clemson uniform, any true to themselves basketball fan would be going crazy over Zion. I mean, we're SOOOO fortunate he's wearing Duke blue...but even the normal haters are loving to watch Zion.

[DukieInBrasil]

I tend to agree. Zion will put butts in seats, but the size, speed and quickness in the NBA is much higher than college. I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if Zion can dominate in the Association like he can in the NCAAs. He also needs a more reliable outside shot to compete in today's NBA. I hope he's the 2nd coming of LeBron (certainly the Cavs might, as they are in the lottery lead), but that's not a given. Barrett already plays a NBA game, his ability to get buckets in traffic without bullying his way to the hoop is more NBA ready. He also has the ball-handling skills as you mentioned. Plus, Zion's size ratio (bulk to height) may eventually be an injury issue with all the power moves he does (knock on wood for the kid). All that being said, I think there's little way a GM for one of the worst teams in the NBA can pass on Zion without a riot from their fan base. Assuming he stays healthy, he's going #1.

9F

I don't get this. RJ is not quicker nor does he jump higher than Zion. His handle isn't appreciably better, and he gets stripped on his drives as frequently or moreso than Zion. If you remove Zion's 1-11 start from 3FGs, he is shooting 10-27 since then, which is better than RJ's season average. Then again, if you remove RJ's worst stretch he'd probably be shooting better than his current average.
As for size, there is nobody except one enormous leadfooted C in the NBA bigger than Zion, and nobody anywhere near his size has the speed, quickness, agility or leaping ability he has. If anything, i would say Zion's game translates to the NBA as well or better than RJ.
One thing that RJ does appreciably better than Zion is deliver assists, but Zion's game of attacking is unparalleled. Why would you ask a guy who shoots 10-12 from the field to pass more?
I certainly think RJ has the potential to have a fine, maybe even excellent pro career. Zion's ceiling (which is certainly well beyond the roof) seems higher than RJ's though.

[dukelifer]

I think the stats like "nobody has averaged THESE specific amounts of these specific stats" are somewhat overvalued, since at some point, every player is unique...so the more qualifiers you add, the less useful it becomes...it's kind of like filing patents...everything is novel to some degree, it's just whether the novelty is also general enough to be useful IP.

anyway

he's a fantastic player, and I didn't realize his assist count was so high. With his consistency on the pull up 15' jumper, this guy is going to do well. He clearly has spurts of inconsistency in his efficiency, but he also has games where he can be highly efficient...and he'll just get better at his decision making.

I do go crazy over him. he's a fantastic player, and we're lucky that we get to see these guys on the floor at the same time.

I wish he would fall more deeply in love with his 15 ft jumper and forget his fling with the 23 ft jumper. The 15 ft jumper, while not flashy, is very dependable.

[Steven43]

I don't get this. RJ is not quicker nor does he jump higher than Zion. His handle isn't appreciably better, and he gets stripped on his drives as frequently or moreso than Zion. If you remove Zion's 1-11 start from 3FGs, he is shooting 10-27 since then, which is better than RJ's season average. Then again, if you remove RJ's worst stretch he'd probably be shooting better than his current average.
As for size, there is nobody except one enormous leadfooted C in the NBA bigger than Zion, and nobody anywhere near his size has the speed, quickness, agility or leaping ability he has. If anything, i would say Zion's game translates to the NBA as well or better than RJ.
One thing that RJ does appreciably better than Zion is deliver assists, but Zion's game of attacking is unparalleled. Why would you ask a guy who shoots 10-12 from the field to pass more?
I certainly think RJ has the potential to have a fine, maybe even excellent pro career. Zion's ceiling (which is certainly well beyond the roof) seems higher than RJ's though.

Yes, yes, and yes again. Zion is a significantly better player than RJ and I think it will remain thus in the NBA.

[nmduke2001]

Please don't flame me, but I have never yelled "pass the ball! He's wide open!" more than I have this season. RJ might average double digit assists if he simply passed to open teammates rather than put his head down and go to the rim.

[Troublemaker]

Zion's ceiling (which is certainly well beyond the roof) seems higher than RJ's though.

There's no doubt. RJ's ceiling is Jimmy Butler. (No shame in that obviously). Zion can be an MVP candidate like Giannis.

I wish he would fall more deeply in love with his 15 ft jumper and forget his fling with the 23 ft jumper. The 15 ft jumper, while not flashy, is very dependable.

RJ's three-ball is almost certainly more efficient than his 15-footer. We might vaguely remember him hitting some midrange or long 2s recently, but almost nobody shoots those shots more efficiently. For the season, RJ is only hitting 2-pt jumpers at 34.7% according to hoop-math: https://hoop-math.com/Duke2019.php

Yes, yes, and yes again. Zion is a significantly better player than RJ and I think it will remain thus in the NBA.

There's no doubt. Any time the competition level increases, the separation between talents becomes greater.

For example, if Zion and I both played against 5-year-olds, I would be just as good a player as him. I might be better actually because he seems like a good guy that would take it easy on them and buy them ice cream or something. But once you get to just a middle school level, it probably becomes obvious that he's better than me.

[Troublemaker]

Now, with all that said, I think the point was to have a pro-RJ thread unencumbered by his detractors or comparisons to Zion.

RJ probably doesn't get enough praise around here for his status as the 2nd-best freshman in the country.