Favorite Player Poll Final 8- JWill vs. Gminski

[JasonEvans]

DON'T VOTE YET!!!

I urge everyone to take a few moments to think about it before voting. Read some of the notes in this thread (and post your own thoughts!!) to see if they jog a memory or help you crystalize your feelings. Then, once you are sure, then vote for your favorite among these two:

#1 seed- Jason Williams-
How he got here:

• Defeated Tate Armstrong with 89.55% of the vote
• Defeated Danny Ferry with 72.05% of the vote

Notable memories/achievements

• Gone in 54 seconds
• Bending over the back of Arizona's Jason Garnder while just-barely not fouling
• Single-handedly defeating Kentucky in overtime in 2001
• Missing soooo many key FTs, but usually coming back and hitting a clutch 3 to make up for it
• Wanted to go to Rutgers, but his momma (we love you!!) convinced him to take the trip to at least look at Duke.
• An amazing chess player, from what I hear
• Won all the national Player of the Year Awards in 2002
• #22 retired by Duke

#9 seed Mike Gminski-
How he got here:

• Defeated Daniel Ewing with 82.64% of the vote
• Defeated Chris Duhon with 56.02% of the vote

Notable memories/achievements

• Probably the best player on "Forever's Team"
• Betcha didn't know he was a huge giver to charity and is on the board of Duke Children's Hosptial, or something like that
• 14 years in the NBA and a huge career as an announcer since then, spreading the Duke love all across the nation for close to 3 decades
• Among the best FT-shooting big men you will ever see
• 3 time first-team All-ACC and a first team All-American as a senior
• 2nd leading rebounds, 4th leading scorer in Duke history
• leading scorer at halftime of game vs. UNC on Feb 24, 1978... with 3 points (I think).
• speaking of Carolina, G-Man's 29 points (on 12-for-15 shooting) in 1978 helped Duke break a long period of loses and frustration to Carolina. He owned the Heels including 6 20+ point games and 2 others with 18 points.
• #43 retired by Duke

--Jason "ok, I need the rest of you to help fill in memories!!" Evans

[Shammrog]

Another tough one. Had to go with JWill. Partly a temporal bias, since Gminski was before my time. It also helps that Jason played in the golden age of Coach K.

But, also - I remember thinking this about him at the time - just about everything with JWill epitomized what I love about Duke Basketball. And, he was dominant; witness the Maryland game.

I love them both. But Jason is one of a very short list of players that for me embody the Duke spirit.

[blazindw]

JWill. Even despite the abilities of the G-Man, he was way before my time (at Duke, that is). The only reason I know of Gminski was due to his years in the NBA when I was growing up. JWill was one of the most dominant players in college history, and I'm glad Momma Williams made him take the trip down to Duke!

My vote's for #22

[JasonEvans]

Early returns-- JWill is up 21-12 (63% - 36%)

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Had to go with Jason, even though Mike Gminski signed a dollar bill for me in St. Louis after they beat Notre Dame in the semi-finals.

[killerleft]

I voted for Jason. Gminski probably deserves it. Both are super-nice guys and could win for Best Player, depending on your argument. I'll never forget the blocks G-Man had against Penn (?) to personally lift Duke to a big NCAA tourney win.

Both players were super competitors. Believe me, Jason doesn't get an edge there. Both had the benefit of great teammates.

[Grey Devil]

I voted for the G-Man. Along with Spanarkel and Banks and the rest of the great Forever's Team, he helped bring Duke back from obscurity in the 70s. Although he didn't do it alone, it could be easily argued that his recruitment was the key linchpin in others signing on, too. Remember he was very young when he first came to Duke (maybe a year younger than the average frosh), and virtually dominated games from the beginning of his college career.

Here's my reasoning:

If I remember correctly, not only was his jersey retired but his was the first to be retired while he was still playing (if not the first EVER to be retired -- I'm a little fuzzy on those details now), starting a long tradition with many great names now hanging from the rafters. I'll argue that without that team Duke wouldn't be where it is today (would Coach K have come to Duke if they hadn't had a recent run in the NCAA? Who knows what all he considered? Would Gene Banks have come if the G-Man wasn't there as a bulwark of the lane? Who knows?)

I need to make a stand for players who aren't so freshly remembered and he was so instrumental in getting Duke back to where it once was. I think it's safe to say we're a bit biased toward the more recent players -- just look at what some have said in this thread for why they voted for JWill over the G-Man. C'mon fellow geezers, get out and vote!

And probably most important to me (but surely not to anyone else on this board) I got married on the Saturday of the Final Four in '78 and he helped to make that day one of the greatest ever in my life. All my Duke buddies were at my house yelling like crazy for Duke to beat Notre Dame (which they did, of course!). One interesting note to this story is that my future wife-to-be had a brother who went to Kentucky, so we all rooted for UK in the second game. (Little did we know then that Goose Givens would go ballistic on Duke the following Monday.) The second game ran longer than expected and a couple of the wedding party arrived just in time for the ceremony, including my brother-in-law-to-be who was one happy usher! Because of Duke's victory my wife and I made a change in our honeymoon so we could see the Championship game. Of course (although she didn't go to Duke) she is as avid a fan as I am. Appealing to the sympathy vote here...

Finally, he's an all around good guy and a great representative for all that Duke stands for.

Grey Devil

[JasonEvans]

Mid-day returns: JWill is pulling away. He leads by 48-22, 68.5% to 31.5%.

[mr. synellinden]

No Duke player was ever more dominant offensively. Carried the team in the NCAA tourney in 2001 before the final four - single handedly willed Duke to a win of USC. In my opinion he would have been a perennial All-Star in the NBA.

[johnb]

If I remember correctly, Gminski's jersey got retired before his final Carolina game. It was a surprise, and he reports later that it was hard to get out of a fog.

For those who don't know, Gman graduated high school a year early to come to Duke, thereby shutting out the schools who would have aggressively recruited him and whose teams were better. He was a recurrent academic all american as well as a the other kind of A-A. A good guy, an NBA starter back when Duke grads were seen as having poor potential for the pro's, and now a super announcer.

To my mind, he has done more for Duke than has JWill.

Having said, I still voted for Williams.

As sad as voting against Gminski is the fact that I'm no longer Christian Laettener (#244 doesn't have quite the ring).

[JasonEvans]

Late-afternoon returns: It is a blow out.

JWill leads 82-39 (67.77%-32.23%).

[JBDuke]

No Duke player was ever more dominant offensively...

If anything, I would hope that this "Favorite Duke player" exercise would have educated folks like you on Duke basketball history to the point that you would see the hyperbole in making such a statement.

Unless you saw Dick Groat play in the 50's, when he averaged 25 points a game, how can you say this? Heck, I can argue that JJ in 2006 was more dominant offensively than JWill.

Unless you are Jim Sumner or Bill Brill or Al Featherston or some other expert on the history of the program, I suggest you refrain from making sweeping pronouncements about "best" or "most" or whatever.

[JasonEvans]

Late-nite returns: 90-48 for JWill. The Gminski backers are just hoping he does not get doubled at this point.

[merry]

I need to make a stand for players who aren't so freshly remembered and he was so instrumental in getting Duke back to where it once was. I think it's safe to say we're a bit biased toward the more recent players -- just look at what some have said in this thread for why they voted for JWill over the G-Man. C'mon fellow geezers, get out and vote!

Everything you say is true! I was lucky enough to see both of these players careers play out in person, and was there when their jersies were retired (As an aside, whoever said Gminski's was retired before a UNC game - it was not. 1980 was one of those years when UNC was not the last game of the season. I think it may have been retired before a game with Clemson?)

I've done a lot of voting for old-timers in these polls, but today I have to go with Jason. The only question in my mind at this point I guess is, is there ANYONE I'll vote for over Jason?

[mr. synellinden]

If anything, I would hope that this "Favorite Duke player" exercise would have educated folks like you on Duke basketball history to the point that you would see the hyperbole in making such a statement.

Unless you saw Dick Groat play in the 50's, when he averaged 25 points a game, how can you say this? Heck, I can argue that JJ in 2006 was more dominant offensively than JWill.

Unless you are Jim Sumner or Bill Brill or Al Featherston or some other expert on the history of the program, I suggest you refrain from making sweeping pronouncements about "best" or "most" or whatever.

Wow that was a little aggressive. Folks like me, huh? You know nothing about me or how much Duke basketball I've seen.

Okay, I never saw Dick Groat play but that is very much besides the point.

I apologize for not qualifying my statement by saying "in my opinion" or "that I've seen" and for not being old enough to make an educated statement encompassing every player to ever play for Duke. I thought it was pretty obvious that people (including me) were posting their opinions - by nature that is what a favorite is - including their opinions as to why a certain player was their favorite. So let me now restate my sweeping pronouncement to satisfy the ridiculous uptightness.

In my humble opinion, Jason Williams was the most dominant offensive player that I've seen play for Duke since I started watching Duke games in the mid 80s (including the Dawkins years).

That being said, who's to say that one of the older posters who has seen Dick Groat play could make an authoritative statement as to who was the best or most dominant Duke player? They'd merely be offering their opinion. Shouldn't they be invited to refrain from making sweeping pronouncements too? Or does the fact that they've seen Dick Groat play mean that it is obvious any sweeping statements they make are just their opinions (albeit ones based on more complete facts)? Aren't you really saying that everyone, regardless of who you've seen play, should refrain from sweeping statements because there really is no way to say who was the best ____, you can only offer an opinion?

Sorry for this direct response but this is the first time I've ever been offended at what something wrote about one of my posts - and an innocuous one at that. It seemed a little uncalled for.

[JBDuke]

Wow that was a little aggressive. Folks like me, huh? You know nothing about me or how much Duke basketball I've seen.

Okay, I never saw Dick Groat play but that is very much besides the point.

I apologize for not qualifying my statement by saying "in my opinion" or "that I've seen" and for not being old enough to make an educated statement encompassing every player to ever play for Duke. I thought it was pretty obvious that people (including me) were posting their opinions - by nature that is what a favorite is - including their opinions as to why a certain player was their favorite. So let me now restate my sweeping pronouncement to satisfy the ridiculous uptightness.

In my humble opinion, Jason Williams was the most dominant offensive player that I've seen play for Duke since I started watching Duke games in the mid 80s (including the Dawkins years).

That being said, who's to say that one of the older posters who has seen Dick Groat play could make an authoritative statement as to who was the best or most dominant Duke player? They'd merely be offering their opinion. Shouldn't they be invited to refrain from making sweeping pronouncements too? Or does the fact that they've seen Dick Groat play mean that it is obvious any sweeping statements they make are just their opinions (albeit ones based on more complete facts)? Aren't you really saying that everyone, regardless of who you've seen play, should refrain from sweeping statements because there really is no way to say who was the best ____, you can only offer an opinion?

Sorry for this direct response but this is the first time I've ever been offended at what something wrote about one of my posts - and an innocuous one at that. It seemed a little uncalled for.

Here's what you said in your first post:

No Duke player was ever more dominant offensively.

That's a pretty emphatic statement. In your second post, you said:

In my humble opinion, Jason Williams was the most dominant offensive player that I've seen play for Duke since I started watching Duke games in the mid 80s (including the Dawkins years).

While this one is much more qualified, and you explicitly state that it's in your opinion, you still don't offer any reason for your statement. Why do you think JWill was the most dominant offensive player?

You could have added: "Even compared to JJ in 2006, JWill seems more dominant, because he had the ball in his hands on almost every possession, and he scored in so many different ways with such ease. He just seemed unstoppable. Unfortunately, as we found out against LSU and Georgetown, JJ could be stopped by a bigger and quicker defender." You see what that adds? Your earlier statements just come off as unsupported blather from a poster with no established credibility to make such a statement. Adding just a couple of sentences explaining why you hold this opinion adds real content to your post.

Maybe I'm just being too touchy about this. If so, I apologize, but I was a little concerned when Jason started up this "Favorite Duke Player" contest, because I thought it might encourage the kind of tripe you read on public bulletin boards all over the Internet. Some bozo jumps on a board, puts up a statement like "Maryland sucks!!!! Duke roolz!!!!!!", and it's done nothing but stir up things. Similarly, although less sophomoric, coming on to DBR and posting "Jason Williams was the most dominant offensive player ever at Duke." without backing up that statement is just stirring up the same sort of trouble. To some extent, you already see it in the posts of some of the folks that are unhappy that their favorites from previous decades are so easily dismissed by less experienced Duke fans.

You're an experienced enough poster that you know that DBR tries to be something different. We want to avoid, if at all possible, sinking down to the level of the common Internet bulletin board. We believe that Julio and Boswell have create a unique online community that many of us have treasured for more than a decade now. And we have to hold each poster accountable to maintain the higher standards our expectations have set.

I've rambled on too long, and I'm tired. Maybe tomorrow, I'll be a less grumpy old man...

[JasonEvans]

Congrats to our 31 seed, Jason Williams, who has advanced to the Final Four where he will face either Bobby Hurley or Johnny Dawkins.

-Jason "at least G-man didn't get doubled" Evans

[merry]

Congrats to our 31 seed, Jason Williams, who has advanced to the Final Four where he will face either Bobby Hurley or Johnny Dawkins.

Now wouldn't you just love to be able to see those face offs on the court?