UNC academics/scandal talk

[barely]

My sentiments exactly. I used to at least respect UNC and my UNC friends (and most UNC grads generally) before the scandal. The scandal and more importantly their response to the scandal lost all my respect for UNC. We’re not talking about the “sins of the father” here. These sins are ongoing and pervasive throughout the UNC alumni base. Simply put, they want to act as if the scandal never happened or was no big deal. When I hear them talk, they sound like folks who talk about their view that man never landed on the moon and “they” made it all up.

My comments are going to seem harsh...allow me to apologize in advance if they offend. But, this is how I feel about the lying, cheating, scumbags who have harmed what was one a great institution.


UNC has traditionally been one of the "public ivies" along with Michigan, Virginia, Texas, Cal, and a couple others... public schools that offered some of the finest educations in the country. Those schools took great pride in that distinction and everyone knew a degree from one of those institutions meant the student was bright, hard-working, and well educated.

Carolina chose to throw that reputation to the curb, to spit on it, and ignore the lasting implications for tens of thousands of current and past students all so they could experience a little more success in football and basketball.

If we now mock UNC and show a lack of respect for the quality of the education provided there, that is the fault of the amoral administrators and leaders who allowed that scandal to happen and then refused to show any remorse or responsibility for it. What's more, I believe the students, alumnus, and professors who continue to remain largely silent about the scandal share an almost equal amount of blame. If 10,000 UNC students/alumni marched on the administration building demanding true punishment and accountability for their degrees being tainted, you can bet something meaningful would be done. If hundreds of professors went on strike insisting that the school take real action to purge itself of the folks who allowed this to happen and made meaningful changes to ensure it never happens again, something would be done.

But, these sheep continue to cheer for the sports teams and laugh at the NCAA for not punishing them. I only lament that we cannot do more than make fun of them and ridicule their education. Your daughter is attending a school that does not truly care about education, a school that thinks its basketball and football teams are more important than its educational reputation. If she is inadvertently affected by scorn directed at this formerly admirable administration, well I just can't bring myself to feel sorry for her. My two sons were looking at schools a few years ago and we ordinarily might have considered Carolina (many in my family went there). But we did not and at least part of the reason is that we believed Carolina's reputation had been permanently harmed.

-Jason "my statement here may seem harsh, but this is the reality of what happens when your school forgets why it really exists and what is really important" Evans

[BD80]

UNC Chancellor Holt is resigning, effective at the end of the academic year...

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/lo...224526250.html

Oooohh … That is actually clever.


If we wait for a year where there exists "academics" at unc, she need never resign!

[brevity]

I have a few thoughts on this subject.

1. I think the catch-all thread title needs to change to better reflect the specific subject matter. We are, by the grace of Dean, not talking about the details of the scandal. It's been discussed to death, and as much as DBR likes to stew in its own repetitive juices, we would benefit from a simple acknowledgment that the scandal is a thing that happened. What we are talking about here is the scandal's effect on UNC's academic reputation among its student undergraduates (and alumni) who were not revenue athletes. Leave the word "scandal" out to spare those members who are easily triggered. Try "UNC's Academic Reputation" or something.

2. I have a family member who is currently at UNC (not an athlete, and probably not a big sports fan). I last saw him during the holiday break of his freshman year, needled him for about a minute about the scandal, and then said I was done. After that he was any college student at any college, even if I happen to feel differently about his particular college. I suspect I would feel the same about most students at UNC, whether they cheer for their team or not. They'll get a little mockery, but they won't get my antagonism unless they invite it. They can choose not to cast aspersions at Duke's recruiting successes, or national attention, or well-settled questions about eligibility. They have the option of saying nothing. It's really up to them.

3. It's unproductive to point out that other big-time programs operate under some level of institution-wide corruption absent some evidence, and the mere suggestion dilutes what UNC did. This was a massive reckless disregard for academics beyond the NCAA's comprehension, and it quickly put them into self-covering mode. This was a new thing, and as far as we know, it has not been repeated anywhere else.

4. A long time ago I was a Duke undergraduate who presumably qualified under standard guidelines because I had, and have, no exceptional ability. No musical talent. No great design, invention, or business acumen. No generational voice for poetry or playwriting. No command of multiple languages. And certainly no athleticism. I'm glad that Duke had, and has, admissions officers who understand that a campus full of people like me is not the goal, and that diversity would include a wide range of personal skills and strengths. Athletes become Duke student-athletes because they earned it, and they remain Duke student-athletes because they did a lot more in a day than I ever did. To speak reductively about that seems incredibly insulting.

5. In my lifetime, only the band Nirvana has gotten a bigger free pass than UNC, and sometimes I question whether their pass was truly "free" if someone had to die for it. Somewhere in my brain, where unresolved anger mixes unhealthily with notions of justice, I fantasize about a Chapel Hill showdown where the athletic department and the academic institution fight for UNC's soul. Who wins? Will it be a shamed college starting a road to redemption, or a continued big-business diploma mill where everyone's education is called into question? And whatever the result, how many died to make it happen? I'll want numbers, and autopsy photos.

[JStuart]

Think she'll get a nice severance/retirement package for this achievement:

https://www.wral.com/accrediting-org...tion/14704731/

Quote from SACS:

"It’s the root of what an academic institution does," Whelan said. "If you can’t count on the quality of the program that students enroll and are granted a degree then what can you do? Why do you exist as an institution?"

And this is what gets glossed over time and time again in these discussions. Can't remember which national sportswriter said, 'in order to avoid NCAA penalties, they had to claim not to be a university', or something similar. Again, they were given NO PENALTIES. None, even after admitting to academic fraud to their accrediting agency. Think about that for a moment.
Then reread the thread. They haven't admitted anything to anyone else. Simply disgusting.
JStuart

[devildeac]

And this is what gets glossed over time and time again in these discussions. Can't remember which national sportswriter said, 'in order to avoid NCAA penalties, they had to claim not to be a university', or something similar. Again, they were given NO PENALTIES. None, even after admitting to academic fraud to their accrediting agency. Think about that for a moment.
Then reread the thread. They haven't admitted anything to anyone else. Simply disgusting.
JStuart

You are correct with the bolded. Then those #$%@ers claimed "typo" to the feckless ncaa. Beyond disgusting.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

My 2 cents that I post on each of these threads:

My instinct is to assume that it is unfair for us, as sports fans, to assume the entire university is corrupt as a result of the athletic cheating. The sports programs are fair game, but thousands of other students have earned solid degrees in reputable programs.

EXCEPT... where was the internal outrage? Where were the alums who demanded legit investigation and accountability? Where were the statements by legit degree earning athletes who were upset that their diplomas were tainted by association?

I went to a tiny school that no one knows with a fraction of their reputation. If there were a scandal that brought my diploma into question, I would be writing angry letters to my college, demanding to know what happened and how, and trying to explain how it was unacceptable.

The silence has been deafening (outside of "everyone does it), and speaks volumes.

[DevilYouKnow]

I'm a native North Carolinian and a Duke grad from the class of Gminski. I grew up in Durham as a Duke fan in a sea of Tar Heel blue. My love for Duke grew in the heady 1960s jsut as my hatred for Carolina matured to a full boiling rage. Every time we face the Holes on the field, court, pitch, tiddly winks stadium, I want Duke to mercilessly beat the Tar Heels within an inch of their lives.

As a native North Carolinian of course, I want to have a world class flagship state university. And we've been lucky to have political support to make our state universities among the world's best. I am proud of the UNC system and the opportunities it affords. Two of my kids went to UNCA which launches their careers as Veterinarian and a Physician.

But the scandals of the AMFAM department and the UNC system's complicity in 1) ripping off student athlete's academic possibilities, 2) creating an unfair advantage for its athletes (if not recruits) and 3) fighting against the charges, ultimately throwing the university's academic reputation under the bus to save its precious athletics program ("We were letting EVERYBODY cheat, so it's okay!").

It's bad enough the vultures in Raleigh want to eviscerate higher education in general, but when the flagship University itself is so complicit in its own downfall, particularly in defending itself against justifiable charges of reckless stewardship, I must vomit in protest.

Now, my desire to beat them to a bloody pulp is even stronger.

[75Crazie]

And let's not forget the pathetic response of the university as a whole to reports of sexual assault on campus over the past decade. uNC was under federal investigation at one time for their handling of such reports, and a Title IX complaint was filed by two female UNC students who were victims of assault. Quite aside from my general disdain of all things light blue, if I had a college-age daughter I would certainly strive to dissuade any interest in that benighted "institution".

[moonpie23]

5. only the band Nirvana has gotten a bigger free pass than UNC,

sometimes, through the smoke and haze of deceit, deflection, and misdirection, a great truth arises to shine through the muckity-muck !


Brevity, i salute you, and would put you on auto-spork for a year if i could....

[dbcooper]

UNC Chancellor Holt is resigning, effective at the end of the academic year...

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/lo...224526250.html

Bigfoot x Mermaids + Unicorns = UNC's Academic Year

[Steven43]

I strongly disagree. UNC has suffered greatly from grade inflation and there are something close to 500 courses in which nothing but A's were given. The problem is you can't look at a UNC transcript and tell if a kid took a hard course of study or not. UNC's professional schools (law, business, medical) I would trust...but not their undergraduate program.

Well, at least you’re not approaching this subject from a point of long-standing anti-UNC bias. Oh wait, your DBR name seems to suggest you just might be an NC State alum or fan. Y’all love you some UNC, right? Always looking for unbiased ways to champion their positives, I’m certain.

Regardless, I’d be interested to see the proof of overall grade inflation at UNC relative to all other colleges in the United States. Because after all, it’s all about who one is being compared with. I went to Yale and I can assure you that nobody inflates undergrad grades more than the Ivies. I experienced it. My classmates experienced it. And most of my friends and colleagues at other Ivies all basically agree when the subject is raised. This has been going on for decades. I have no qualms stating that nor am I ashamed by it.

Judging by many of the posts on this thread there is a strong opinion on this board that all things UNC-related, including UNC diplomas, are suddenly devalued all around the nation and the world. I’d like to see some proof of that beyond the OPINIONS of those who are predisposed towards being anti UNC.

[75Crazie]

Judging by many of the posts on this thread there is a strong opinion on this board that all things UNC-related, including UNC diplomas, are suddenly devalued all around the nation and the world. I’d like to see some proof of that beyond the OPINIONS of those who are predisposed towards being anti UNC.

I remember that there was a lot of discussion back when uNC was put on probation by SACS, concerning the impact on federal grants and the like. I do not know the long-term impact of that, but I do remember there being a definite short-term impact on how uNC degrees were viewed. Per Belle Whelan, SACS president at the time:

This is the first one I can recall in the 10 years I’ve been here that we put an institution on probation for academic fraud or academic integrity.

[Steven43]

I remember that there was a lot of discussion back when uNC was put on probation by SACS, concerning the impact on federal grants and the like. I do not know the long-term impact of that, but I do remember there being a definite short-term impact on how uNC degrees were viewed. Per Belle Whelan, SACS president at the time:

The News&Observor
June 16, 2016

UNC-Chapel Hill’s accrediting body has removed the university from probationary status after a yearlong sanction.

At a meeting of the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges on Thursday in Memphis, Tenn., it lifted UNC’s probation, thereby putting its accreditation back on solid ground.

Thursday’s decision followed several reviews by SACS in recent years, culminating in the 2015 probation decision, which was a rare step to take against a major U.S. research university.


The only action more severe would have been for SACS to revoke a university’s accreditation altogether – something that almost no one thought would happen to UNC. Losing accreditation means losing eligibility for federal funding and has led some colleges to shut down.

Belle Wheelan, president of the SACS Commission on Colleges, said Thursday that the board’s questions about UNC were satisfied. “They have done so many things to put safeguards in place to ensure this doesn’t happen, including the appointment of an integrity officer,” Wheelan said. “The board felt that they really are sincere about making sure that all the safeguards are in place that can be in place.”

Chancellor Carol Folt formed working groups to examine integrity, ethics and university processes. She created a new position for a high-level integrity officer. The university mounted a huge effort to implement changes and document them for the accrediting body in the past year. But there was little evidence that probation affected recruiting, student applications or fundraising.

[PackMan97]

Well, at least you’re not approaching this subject from a point of long-standing anti-UNC bias. Oh wait, your DBR name seems to suggest you just might be an NC State alum or fan. Y’all love you some UNC, right? Always looking for unbiased ways to champion their positives, I’m certain.

I am the most unbiased person when it comes to UNC. When it comes to UNC malfeasance there is absolutely nothing I won't believe. If they gave an award for open mindedness, they would name it after me!

[Steven43]

I am the most unbiased person when it comes to UNC. When it comes to UNC malfeasance there is absolutely nothing I won't believe. If they gave an award for open mindedness, they would name it after me!

Excellent response!

[75Crazie]

Steven43, you asked for proof of uNC diploma devaluation. I would suggest to you that being placed on probation by the accrediting agency, no matter how temporary that probation was, is just that kind of proof. It is an extraordinary step for such an agency to take, especially for a "public ivy".

[Steven43]

Steven43, you asked for proof of uNC diploma devaluation. I would suggest to you that being placed on probation by the accrediting agency, no matter how temporary that probation was, is just that kind of proof. It is an extraordinary step for such an agency to take, especially for a "public ivy".

Okay, thank you. I would say, though, that even back in 2015-2016 I seriously doubt it negatively affected the hiring or entry into graduate or professional schools — which is really most people’s bottom line — for UNC grads. And at this point, as fast as the world moves, this is old news. Nobody — save for those who root against UNC sports teams — even talks about it anymore. Fair or not that’s just the way it is.

Personally, I was hoping for the Death Penalty for UNC’s basketball and football programs. Not only did that not happen, but they really didn’t even get punished at all. Nothing we can do about it. It’s over. Life goes on. It’s already fading from collective memory. And now my daughter is a freshman at UNC and I have zero concern that this will negatively affect her in any way whatsoever. Well, unless she applies for a job in 4 or 5 years at the company for which Rich works and he is still doing the hiring! I doubt that thought is going to keep her up at night.

[Rich]

Steven43, you asked for proof of uNC diploma devaluation. I would suggest to you that being placed on probation by the accrediting agency, no matter how temporary that probation was, is just that kind of proof. It is an extraordinary step for such an agency to take, especially for a "public ivy".

I think what we have here is a matter of perception vs. reality. The reality of the situation is what 75Crazie notes about probation by the accrediting agency and a well documented, long history of academic fraud that didn't just include athletes (wasn't that UNC's defense to the NCAA?!).

The perception, other than those on Boards like this and those located in North Carolina where there was a greater proliferation of news on the topic, is that UNC is as fine an academic institution as it's always purportedly been. I believe that was Steven43's point (and probably a sprinkle of wishful thinking since, I believe, he mentioned that his daughter goes or graduated from there). Unfortunately, I think Steven43 is correct, at least that's the case where I live, in the Northeast.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Personally, I was hoping for the Death Penalty for UNC’s basketball and football programs. Not only did that not happen, but they really didn’t even get punished at all.

Clearly you haven't heard the kvetching from Roy... The mere threat of punishment was punishment enough to scare off recruits.

::massive eyeroll::

There will never be consensus here on lots of things. One exception is that we all agree UNC skated to a degree that renders the NCAA ineffectual at best, neutered at worst.

What there is definitely disagreement on is the culpability and/or shame shared by the university, the academic programs, student, or alums.

[PackMan97]

I think what we have here is a matter of perception vs. reality. The reality of the situation is what 75Crazie notes about probation by the accrediting agency and a well documented, long history of academic fraud that didn't just include athletes (wasn't that UNC's defense to the NCAA?!).

The perception, other than those on Boards like this and those located in North Carolina where there was a greater proliferation of news on the topic, is that UNC is as fine an academic institution as it's always purportedly been. I believe that was Steven43's point (and probably a sprinkle of wishful thinking since, I believe, he mentioned that his daughter goes or graduated from there). Unfortunately, I think Steven43 is correct, at least that's the case where I live, in the Northeast.

It is not the case in the Triangle. A number of folks I know that make hiring decisions, if they discover via social media that someone is a Tarheel fan they bring up the scandal. The response is quite often a difference maker in the hiring decision, in particular when it comes to situational ethics. It isn't necessarily a devaluing of a degree from Carolina, but it is definitely a hurdle that hasn't been there in the past.