UNC academics/scandal talk

[Steven43]

But Little can come back to the Hill, goof off, not go to class and play millennial video games for a few more years. OTOH RJ, Cam, Zion and Tre are gonna work their butts off to make their $millions as 19 year old adults. All part of Roy’s master plan.

Hmm...I don’t know about this “goof off and not go to class thing”. My daughter is a freshman at UNC (waitlisted by Duke, ultimately didn’t get in) and that has not been her experience at all. She was a strong student in high school and assumed she was well-prepared for college. Well, UNC has been TOUGH thus far. She took 17 hours and had at least two premed med school weed out classes, so that probably didn’t help. Still, she studies quite a bit, doesn’t party much at all, and is focused on doing well.

Yet, A’s are really hard to come by and even B’s are a real challenge. All of her teachers took attendance and were very serious about tardiness. Any student absent more than two times got marked down one letter grade. Same thing with three tardies. Now I don’t know if all schools are like this these days, but UNC’s policies are far more draconian than when I attended undergrad in the 80’s. I don’t remember these things being an issue whatsoever when I was in school. And yes, classes were fairly tough, but not nearly as difficult as hers appear to be.

[CDu]

Hmm...I don’t know about this “goof off and not go to class thing”. My daughter is a freshman at UNC (waitlisted by Duke, ultimately didn’t get in) and that has not been her experience at all. She was a strong student in high school and assumed she was well-prepared for college. Well, UNC has been TOUGH thus far. She took 17 hours and had at least two premed med school weed out classes, so that probably didn’t help. Still, she studies quite a bit, doesn’t party much at all, and is focused on doing well. Yet, A’s are really hard to come by and even B’s are a challenge. All of her teachers took attendance and were very serious about tardiness. Any student absent more than two times got marked down one letter grade. Same thing with three tardies. Now I don’t know if all schools are like this these days, but UNC’s policies are far more draconian than when I attended undergrad in the 80’s. I don’t remember this stuff being an issue whatsoever when I was in school. And yes, classes were fairly tough, but not nearly as difficult as hers appear to be.

Pretty sure you missed the joke. It was a jab at UNC’s athletic scandal where they created sham classes for revenue-sport athletes. Unless your daughter plays football or men’s b-ball, I don’t think her academic experience is relevant here.

[Steven43]

Pretty sure you missed the joke. It was a jab at UNC’s athletic scandal where they created sham classes for revenue-sport athletes. Unless your daughter plays football or men’s b-ball, I don’t think her academic experience is relevant here.

No, I got the joke just fine. I guess I’m just reacting more to the many DBR posts over the years that have denigrated UNC as an academic institution. I know it’s good fun and all that. I just have always strongly doubted its veracity.

[elvis14]

No, I got the joke just fine. I guess I’m just reacting more to the many DBR posts over the years that have denigrated UNC as an academic institution. I know it’s good fun and all that. I just have always strongly doubted its veracity.

I'll be the first make jokes about UNCheat and their academic cheating, etc. But I live here and have 2 girls in high school in Raleigh. We all know UNCheat is a good school with a dirty athletics program. My kids are pretty good students and I doubt either will get into UNC (or Duke) because they are not quite good enough at a sport.

The level headed UNCheat alums that I know are upset about the scandal because they worked really hard to earn their degrees. One of my co-workers is an NC State fan but a UNCheat alum. He took an AFAM class that he thought was a really good class and was not easy. He didn't appreciate others getting unearned grades in a similar class without doing the work.

[BandAlum83]

I'll be the first make jokes about UNCheat and their academic cheating, etc. But I live here and have 2 girls in high school in Raleigh. We all know UNCheat is a good school with a dirty athletics program. My kids are pretty good students and I doubt either will get into UNC (or Duke) because they are not quite good enough at a sport.

The level headed UNCheat alums that I know are upset about the scandal because they worked really hard to earn their degrees. One of my co-workers is an NC State fan but a UNCheat alum. He took an AFAM class that he thought was a really good class and was not easy. He didn't appreciate others getting unearned grades in a similar class without doing the work.

LisaMarie14 always seemed pretty bright to me, even if not prime.

[Rich]

No, I got the joke just fine. I guess I’m just reacting more to the fact that UNC over the years has denigrated UNC as an academic institution.

FIFY...and this is the truth. They made their bed and now should have to sleep in it. The shame is that this scandal has been completely swept under the rug in most parts of the country.

[BD80]

Pretty sure you missed the joke. It was a jab at UNC’s athletic scandal where they created sham classes for revenue-sport athletes. Unless your daughter plays football or men’s b-ball, I don’t think her academic experience is relevant here.

She would get the EXACT same treatment if she played women's basketball or women's soccer!

No, I got the joke just fine. I guess I’m just reacting more to the many DBR posts over the years that have denigrated UNC as an academic institution. I know it’s good fun and all that. I just have always strongly doubted its veracity.

Veracity?!? What the hell does truth have to do with anything?


unc rode the APPEARANCE of a serious university to multiple NCAA championships in multiple sports, with the athletes needing NO academic integrity. No truth there either.


Now the pendulum has swung, and those now choosing to attend the "university" must bear (should "bare") the stain of that unprecedented streak of ZERO academic integrity.

[Steven43]

Now the pendulum has swung, and those now choosing to attend the "university" must bear (should "bare") the stain of that unprecedented streak of ZERO academic integrity.

I don’t really buy into a “sins of the father” burden being placed on current and future UNC students. If that works for you, though, more power to you.

[Rich]

I don’t really buy into a “sins of the father” burden being placed on current and future UNC students. If that works for you, though, more power to you.

Well, it works for me and I do some hiring at my organization so I guess there is more power to me. I would now strongly question a resume that shows education of any grad from that institution when making a hiring decision. Perhaps my views are not widespread (outside of DBR), but I believe they should be.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Well, it works for me and I do some hiring at my organization so I guess there is more power to me. I would now strongly question a resume that shows education of any grad from that institution when making a hiring decision. Perhaps my views are not widespread (outside of DBR), but I believe they should be.

I guess I will be the exception to the rule here but I really think this is overdoing it. I am a passionate Duke fan and alum and despise UNC sports. But I have also worked with many UNC alums. Like alums of all schools (including Duke), they varied in quality - some were poor performers, some were superstars. A number of them chose to go to UNC because they were top students at their high schools in North Carolina and it was a way to get a good education at a very reasonable price compared to the other schools they were accepted to. For the vast majority, even those who were huge sports fans, athletics had almost no impact on their decision. I have spoken to several UNC alums (some of whom were former athletes, including a former football player who is extremely bright) who are embarrassed by the situation. But they know that the vast majority of the university's students and alums had nothing to do with this, and they realize that withholding their $100 a year of donations isn't going to really move the needle.

UNC obviously has some serious flaws. We as sports fans happen to be more aware of them. Other institutions have similar problems that we might not be as aware of because it isn't in an area we focus on. Their flaws are exacerbated by the fact that their administration is clearly in denial about them. I have worked for several companies that have been involved in very major scandals or errors in judgement. These involved our senior-most leadership but not the people who I worked with every day. Management would publicly apologize but ultimately would try to minimize the pain we felt by hiring expensive lawyers to minimize punishment. I was embarrassed by the situation. To some extent it might have accelerated my efforts to leave the company, but at the end of the day, I have a mortgage, kids, and other bills to pay, so I was not going to stand on a soapbox and put my family's well-being in jeopardy over these issues. I feel similarly about those who went to UNC or who go there now.

[COYS]

I guess I will be the exception to the rule here but I really think this is overdoing it. I am a passionate Duke fan and alum and despise UNC sports. But I have also worked with many UNC alums. Like alums of all schools (including Duke), they varied in quality - some were poor performers, some were superstars. A number of them chose to go to UNC because they were top students at their high schools in North Carolina and it was a way to get a good education at a very reasonable price compared to the other schools they were accepted to. For the vast majority, even those who were huge sports fans, athletics had almost no impact on their decision. I have spoken to several UNC alums (some of whom were former athletes, including a former football player who is extremely bright) who are embarrassed by the situation. But they know that the vast majority of the university's students and alums had nothing to do with this, and they realize that withholding their $100 a year of donations isn't going to really move the needle.

UNC obviously has some serious flaws. We as sports fans happen to be more aware of them. Other institutions have similar problems that we might not be as aware of because it isn't in an area we focus on. Their flaws are exacerbated by the fact that their administration is clearly in denial about them. I have worked for several companies that have been involved in very major scandals or errors in judgement. These involved our senior-most leadership but not the people who I worked with every day. Management would publicly apologize but ultimately would try to minimize the pain we felt by hiring expensive lawyers to minimize punishment. I was embarrassed by the situation. To some extent it might have accelerated my efforts to leave the company, but at the end of the day, I have a mortgage, kids, and other bills to pay, so I was not going to stand on a soapbox and put my family's well-being in jeopardy over these issues. I feel similarly about those who went to UNC or who go there now.

I lean this direction, too, when it comes to judging UNC as a whole. Most casual UNC fans aren't even really aware of the details. That might seem hard to believe for those of us on a message board that kept up with every single twist and turn. But it's true. I have friends who are UNC fans who value education tremendously but also are really only interested in the basketball games, and that's about all they have time for. Honestly, I get it. It's not just the NCAA that failed to cover the scope of the scandal. ESPN and other sports media outlets hardly reported anything about it, either. If you're not on a college basketball message board every day like all of us are, you might have largely missed it or thought it was no big deal. Also, the scandal is already ancient history for high school seniors. They probably weren't even paying attention to ANYTHING serious on the collegiate level two-three years ago as the scandal came to a head.

In addition, the university itself is gigantic. It's full of lots of students and grad students who are focused on their studies/research and who have neither awareness nor control over what the athletic department does. As for the administrators and professors who were complicit in the fraud, I think their reputations should suffer, accordingly. But they represent a small percentage of the faculty at UNC. And, again, most of the faculty are pretty far removed from the inner-workings of the Athletic Department. Heck, we know for a fact that most basketball players were steered into a pretty narrow subset of classes. I don't think the scandal really has much effect on the credibility of the biology or astrophysics departments.

I've told this story a few times, but it's worth telling again. My father took a job at Auburn back in the 70's when he was finishing up his PhD. He had football players in his intro to Psychology class that never showed up so he was failing them. Two tickets to the Iron Bowl showed up on his desk one day with a letter that said "Come watch (insert names of the football players in his class) play this Saturday." My dad scalped the tickets and failed the students. He could care less about football. He was serious about academics. But his actions didn't really do anything to stop the fraud that Auburn was committing (although they were actually caught and sanctioned in the ensuing years). There are probably a lot of UNC professors who didn't like what was going on but were also so peripheral to it that they weren't making gigantic reports to give to the NCAA.

This is not to say that what was done isn't awful. It makes my blood boil that they exploited the AFAM department, a field of study that still struggles to find legitimacy in the face of the ghosts of racial discrimination. It's even grosser that they steered so many African American athletes into bogus classes in AFAM. I won't go further in my feelings about this since it will quickly cross over into PPB terrifory, but suffice it to say that I think what UNC did was really, really disgusting on a level that goes beyond simple cheating to win basketball games. I get angrier than Jason Evans when I think about it =).

But life in the academic world is extremely difficult for faculty. Finding tenure-track positions is getting increasingly more difficult. Most grad students and professors are occupied searching for funding for their positions/research, applying to new positions when the funding expires for their current position, and actually conducting their work to even notice the Athletic Department.

The reality is that the NCAA failed because the cheating was so obvious and the information was readily available. There were flashing red signs signaling what was going on. The NCAA just chose to do nothing about it.

To bring this back to 2019 recruiting, I DO think the scandal still hurts UNC's recruiting. It might not hurt them with every recruit. But there are going to be a few parents of basketball players out there who look at the scandal, look at the bevy of other top-tier basketball programs out there, and quickly steers their kid away from UNC.

[Kfanarmy]

Well, it works for me and I do some hiring at my organization so I guess there is more power to me. I would now strongly question a resume that shows education of any grad from that institution when making a hiring decision. Perhaps my views are not widespread (outside of DBR), but I believe they should be.

agree whole-heartedly. The thing that sticks with me is that there was never pursuit of any potential wrong doing outside of one academic department. There was never an honest attempt to determine what Swofford and personnel in the Athletic department had set up with the other Academic departments. AFAM was, I believe, most likely just the tip of the iceberg. No one looked below the surface, and there was likely a lot more ice there.

[JStuart]

agree whole-heartedly. The thing that sticks with me is that there was never pursuit of any potential wrong doing outside of one academic department. There was never an honest attempt to determine what Swofford and personnel in the Athletic department had set up with the other Academic departments. AFAM was, I believe, most likely just the tip of the iceberg. No one looked below the surface, and there was likely a lot more ice there.

Also, it was reported that the fellow doing the real review -not Jim Martin's whitewash- offered to look into, and follow leads toward, other departments (for a big discount when Folt complained about how much he was charging) he was quickly told that they only authorized the AFAM section, period! Not too suspicious, right?

I had heard rumors long ago that unc had their crip courses for athletics in the Portuguese department. Little did any of us imagine that they would simply create courses out of thin air, have a secretary grade the only paper assigned, which was plagierized, and submitted multiple times.

I had hoped that someday Al Featherston and Dan Kane would combine to write the definitive book on the entire thing, but I just don't think that will happen now...maybe Dan is burning the midnight oil?

[JasonEvans]

No, I got the joke just fine. I guess I’m just reacting more to the many DBR posts over the years that have denigrated UNC as an academic institution. I know it’s good fun and all that. I just have always strongly doubted its veracity.

My comments are going to seem harsh...allow me to apologize in advance if they offend. But, this is how I feel about the lying, cheating, scumbags who have harmed what was one a great institution.


UNC has traditionally been one of the "public ivies" along with Michigan, Virginia, Texas, Cal, and a couple others... public schools that offered some of the finest educations in the country. Those schools took great pride in that distinction and everyone knew a degree from one of those institutions meant the student was bright, hard-working, and well educated.

Carolina chose to throw that reputation to the curb, to spit on it, and ignore the lasting implications for tens of thousands of current and past students all so they could experience a little more success in football and basketball.

If we now mock UNC and show a lack of respect for the quality of the education provided there, that is the fault of the amoral administrators and leaders who allowed that scandal to happen and then refused to show any remorse or responsibility for it. What's more, I believe the students, alumnus, and professors who continue to remain largely silent about the scandal share an almost equal amount of blame. If 10,000 UNC students/alumni marched on the administration building demanding true punishment and accountability for their degrees being tainted, you can bet something meaningful would be done. If hundreds of professors went on strike insisting that the school take real action to purge itself of the folks who allowed this to happen and made meaningful changes to ensure it never happens again, something would be done.

But, these sheep continue to cheer for the sports teams and laugh at the NCAA for not punishing them. I only lament that we cannot do more than make fun of them and ridicule their education. Your daughter is attending a school that does not truly care about education, a school that thinks its basketball and football teams are more important than its educational reputation. If she is inadvertently affected by scorn directed at this formerly admirable administration, well I just can't bring myself to feel sorry for her. My two sons were looking at schools a few years ago and we ordinarily might have considered Carolina (many in my family went there). But we did not and at least part of the reason is that we believed Carolina's reputation had been permanently harmed.

-Jason "my statement here may seem harsh, but this is the reality of what happens when your school forgets why it really exists and what is really important" Evans

[ChillinDuke]

My comments are going to seem harsh...allow me to apologize in advance if they offend. But, this is how I feel about the lying, cheating, scumbags who have harmed what was one a great institution.


UNC has traditionally been one of the "public ivies" along with Michigan, Virginia, Texas, Cal, and a couple others... public schools that offered some of the finest educations in the country. Those schools took great pride in that distinction and everyone knew a degree from one of those institutions meant the student was bright, hard-working, and well educated.

Carolina chose to throw that reputation to the curb, to spit on it, and ignore the lasting implications for tens of thousands of current and past students all so they could experience a little more success in football and basketball.

If we now mock UNC and show a lack of respect for the quality of the education provided there, that is the fault of the amoral administrators and leaders who allowed that scandal to happen and then refused to show any remorse or responsibility for it. What's more, I believe the students, alumnus, and professors who continue to remain largely silent about the scandal share an almost equal amount of blame. If 10,000 UNC students/alumni marched on the administration building demanding true punishment and accountability for their degrees being tainted, you can bet something meaningful would be done. If hundreds of professors went on strike insisting that the school take real action to purge itself of the folks who allowed this to happen and made meaningful changes to ensure it never happens again, something would be done.

But, these sheep continue to cheer for the sports teams and laugh at the NCAA for not punishing them. I only lament that we cannot do more than make fun of them and ridicule their education. Your daughter is attending a school that does not truly care about education, a school that thinks its basketball and football teams are more important than its educational reputation. If she is inadvertently affected by scorn directed at this formerly admirable administration, well I just can't bring myself to feel sorry for her. My two sons were looking at schools a few years ago and we ordinarily might have considered Carolina (many in my family went there). But we did not and at least part of the reason is that we believed Carolina's reputation had been permanently harmed.

-Jason "my statement here may seem harsh, but this is the reality of what happens when your school forgets why it really exists and what is really important" Evans

It's also just funny (and sad) that in this world of he-said-she-said claims and viral "causes" that rile up huge groups of people over what often amounts to largely speculative data/theories, in an act that was very well documented and fairly obviously unethical involving young adults and public educations and presumably hundreds of millions of dollars, in the end no one really seemed to care.

Bizarre. But that's all I'll say.

- Chillin

[golfinesquire]

My comments are going to seem harsh...allow me to apologize in advance if they offend. But, this is how I feel about the lying, cheating, scumbags who have harmed what was one a great institution.


UNC has traditionally been one of the "public ivies" along with Michigan, Virginia, Texas, Cal, and a couple others... public schools that offered some of the finest educations in the country. Those schools took great pride in that distinction and everyone knew a degree from one of those institutions meant the student was bright, hard-working, and well educated.

Carolina chose to throw that reputation to the curb, to spit on it, and ignore the lasting implications for tens of thousands of current and past students all so they could experience a little more success in football and basketball.

If we now mock UNC and show a lack of respect for the quality of the education provided there, that is the fault of the amoral administrators and leaders who allowed that scandal to happen and then refused to show any remorse or responsibility for it. What's more, I believe the students, alumnus, and professors who continue to remain largely silent about the scandal share an almost equal amount of blame. If 10,000 UNC students/alumni marched on the administration building demanding true punishment and accountability for their degrees being tainted, you can bet something meaningful would be done. If hundreds of professors went on strike insisting that the school take real action to purge itself of the folks who allowed this to happen and made meaningful changes to ensure it never happens again, something would be done.

But, these sheep continue to cheer for the sports teams and laugh at the NCAA for not punishing them. I only lament that we cannot do more than make fun of them and ridicule their education. Your daughter is attending a school that does not truly care about education, a school that thinks its basketball and football teams are more important than its educational reputation. If she is inadvertently affected by scorn directed at this formerly admirable administration, well I just can't bring myself to feel sorry for her. My two sons were looking at schools a few years ago and we ordinarily might have considered Carolina (many in my family went there). But we did not and at least part of the reason is that we believed Carolina's reputation had been permanently harmed.

-Jason "my statement here may seem harsh, but this is the reality of what happens when your school forgets why it really exists and what is really important" Evans

No disagreement that UNC's cheating scandal took the rule-bending and breaking to a whole new level. But let's be honest, sports has corrupted every major university to some degree. While Duke does not lower its requirements to the degree that other schools do, there have certainly been basketball players who, without their athletic talent, would not be enrolled at the university. Then, there is the issue of what courses the kids take when they start at these schools. Yes, Duke kids have to and do go to class but how many of them are pre-med or engineering majors? There have been studies on how much being a scholarship athlete limits the choices of classes and majors, given the time commitment of practice and travel at a top level school. It may be time for the broader discussion of whether big-time college sports is really compatible with an academic institution at all.

[Sir Stealth]

No disagreement that UNC's cheating scandal took the rule-bending and breaking to a whole new level. But let's be honest, sports has corrupted every major university to some degree. While Duke does not lower its requirements to the degree that other schools do, there have certainly been basketball players who, without their athletic talent, would not be enrolled at the university. Then, there is the issue of what courses the kids take when they start at these schools. Yes, Duke kids have to and do go to class but how many of them are pre-med or engineering majors? There have been studies on how much being a scholarship athlete limits the choices of classes and majors, given the time commitment of practice and travel at a top level school. It may be time for the broader discussion of whether big-time college sports is really compatible with an academic institution at all.

I think that bringing up these questions in the context of what UNC did would really cheapen the value of that discussion with false equivalence. You may object that you're not actually equating them, but they shouldn't be in the same conversation. "Everybody does it" is the bull that UNC sold to everyone, but those who were paying attention know that it was much, much worse than the issues you raise about where to draw the line with valuing athletics in academic institutions. And while there were certainly honorable dissenters, the faculty, powers-that-be, and alumni of UNC by and large thumbed their noses at the idea that they should apologize or seriously reflect on the widespread fraud and exploitation done in the university's name. So it's hard to sympathize, even with those whose hard work academic work at the school may not deserve the extra scrutiny it gets as a result (especially because, outside of Duke and State message boards, it was completely swept under the rug and the world at large doesn't actually scrutinize).

[golfinesquire]

I think that bringing up these questions in the context of what UNC did would really cheapen the value of that discussion with false equivalence. You may object that you're not actually equating them, but they shouldn't be in the same conversation. "Everybody does it" is the bull that UNC sold to everyone, but those who were paying attention know that it was much, much worse than the issues you raise about where to draw the line with valuing athletics in academic institutions. And while there were certainly honorable dissenters, the faculty, powers-that-be, and alumni of UNC by and large thumbed their noses at the idea that they should apologize or seriously reflect on the widespread fraud and exploitation done in the university's name. So it's hard to sympathize, even with those whose hard work academic work at the school may not deserve the extra scrutiny it gets as a result (especially because, outside of Duke and State message boards, it was completely swept under the rug and the world at large doesn't actually scrutinize).

I disagree. These are conversations that need to be had and btw, I would not be surprised to learn that there are a number of places were athletes take no-show classes and pass to keep their eligibility. I am not advocating giving any one of them a free pass but there is a larger issue out here than one university and I don't think it cheapens anything to point that out.

[howardlander]

I disagree. These are conversations that need to be had and btw, I would not be surprised to learn that there are a number of places were athletes take no-show classes and pass to keep their eligibility. I am not advocating giving any one of them a free pass but there is a larger issue out here than one university and I don't think it cheapens anything to point that out.

Couldn't agree more. Does anyone really believe that all of the football players at Alabama or Clemson (just to pick out a couple) stay in good academic standing year after year without something we would consider cheating? It's a question of A) degree and B) getting caught. UNC cheated in a truly egregious fashion and they got caught red handed. Considering all that ensued, I don't think any fair minded person can ever view their athletic programs without a significant degree of skepticism again. But if you asked me, on a scale of completely clean to Carolina and worse, where I think many big time athletic programs sit, I'm doubtful that many are completely clean.

Obligatory Carolina Cheating story: When I was in grad school there for Computer Science, my girlfriend at the time was a law student. One year we had a big party for her birthday. Several of the guys living across the street were varsity Carolina soccer players who came over for the party. After a couple of beers, one of the guys was complaining about J.R. Reid getting an advance copy of a test for a class they shared. Basically, his complaint was that his scholarship was just as good as J.R.'s and he thought he should also have gotten the test in advance. I'd like to think that sort of thing doesn't happen everywhere, and I'd be furious if I thought it was happening at Duke, but I guess I'm not naive enough to think it's not fairly widespread.

Howard

[NSDukeFan]

Couldn't agree more. Does anyone really believe that all of the football players at Alabama or Clemson (just to pick out a couple) stay in good academic standing year after year without something we would consider cheating? It's a question of A) degree and B) getting caught. UNC cheated in a truly egregious fashion and they got caught red handed. Considering all that ensued, I don't think any fair minded person can ever view their athletic programs without a significant degree of skepticism again. But if you asked me, on a scale of completely clean to Carolina and worse, where I think many big time athletic programs sit, I'm doubtful that many are completely clean.

Obligatory Carolina Cheating story: When I was in grad school there for Computer Science, my girlfriend at the time was a law student. One year we had a big party for her birthday. Several of the guys living across the street were varsity Carolina soccer players who came over for the party. After a couple of beers, one of the guys was complaining about J.R. Reid getting an advance copy of a test for a class they shared. Basically, his complaint was that his scholarship was just as good as J.R.'s and he thought he should also have gotten the test in advance. I'd like to think that sort of thing doesn't happen everywhere, and I'd be furious if I thought it was happening at Duke, but I guess I'm not naive enough to think it's not fairly widespread.

Howard

That guy must not have been in the right fraternity to get the copy that J.R. got.