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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK View Post
    And we've had some nightmare experiences in that arena. The seating is very steep, and when it's full, it can get crazy. I'm betting it's jam packed full for Duke. Duke has seen that court stormed more than once.
    Other than BC and Georgia Tech, is there any arena in the ACC that's not difficult to win in? As can be seen from Duke's road win-loss record over 18 seasons (shown in an earlier post in this thread), the difference between the hardest place to play (based on win/loss record) and the 8th-hardest is just one (1) "standings game" (the difference between 7-6 and 7-4).

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Other than BC and Georgia Tech, is there any arena in the ACC that's not difficult to win in? As can be seen from Duke's road win-loss record over 18 seasons (shown in an earlier post in this thread), the difference between the hardest place to play (based on win/loss record) and the 8th-hardest is just one (1) "standings game" (the difference between 7-6 and 7-4).
    There is no arena that is easy for Duke to win in....for reasons discussed earlier and in other threads. But Duke's troubles in Tallahassee stretches back into the 90s as well...
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

  3. #23
    What's the over/under on FSU's Men's BB team average age?


  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    FSU has historically been a difficult-ish opponent for us when we go to Tallahassee. Even when they aren't great, they sometimes nip us there. It's not an easy place to play. The lighting is bad, the crowd isn't great, it's just a bad combination. So, yeah, this one should be a step up from Wake.

    As for the Noles this year, they are again a solid defensive squad and okay-ish offensive squad. They are, as usual, athletic and physical, with good size on the perimeter. They force a lot of turnovers and block some shots, and generally make like annoying for the opposition's offense. They also foul a lot, which comes with their physical style of play. On offense, they draw fouls pretty well, and make a decent percentage of FTs. They are also an elite offensive rebounding team, and that's what keeps them afloat. They don't really do anything else particularly well offensively, including being a terrible shooting team and a terrible passing team. They are also turnover prone, which plays into our hands a bit (hopefully).

    It's likely to be a slugfest, as it usually is with FSU, and especially so in Tallahassee. They'll throw a TON of bodies at us, some skilled, many not. Hope we're ready for it.

    Centers: We're finally starting to run out of freakish 7-footers at FSU. However, we aren't quite there yet. Christ Koumadje (7'4", 270lb senior from Chad) is the starting center. Koumadje has always been a spindly player. But over his 4 years at FSU, he's put on 45 lbs such that he's now... less spindly. As you might expect, Koumadje is a great shotblocker. He's also gotten to be a great rebounder, on both ends of the floor. He has, however, ZERO offensive skills other than catching rebounds and dunking. He's not even all that high-percentage a scorer despite basically just attempting shots at the rim. Koumadje doesn't play a ton of minutes, but he does make an impact when he's in there. Behind Koumadje, the Noles bring sort of the opposite end of the spectrum in Raiquan Gray (6'8", 260lb freshman). Gray is a short-ish, stocky, interior player with sort of the opposite skill set to Koumadje. He's a good passer and decent shooter, but not very quick/athletic.

    Forwards: Phil Cofer (6'8", 230lb fifth-year senior) is the starting PF. Cofer missed several games early in the season, and is just now rounding into form. He's a prototypical stretch-big: great 3pt shooter at his size. He was an All-ACC caliber player last year, but is still showing some rust as we get into conference play. Still, he's a really dangerous weapon for them. Alongside Cofer in the starting lineup is Terance Mann (6'7", 215lb senior). No, he's not the fictional writer from the Field of Dreams movie. Mann is kind of like Justise Winslow in style. He's a rugged, versatile player, capable of guarding 1-to-4, and not being a liability against many 5s either. He's a terrific rebounder and has improved his shooting over the years as well. He's the leader of this team, and a terrific player. The heart and soul of the Noles. Behind (and often alongside) those two is Mfiondu Kabengele (6'10", 250lb sophomore from Canada). Kabengele's major claim to fame is that he's Dikembe Mutombo's nephew. However, he's very little like his uncle in style of play. He is a strong rebounder and shotblocker somewhat like Dikembe, but Kabengele is also fairly skilled offensively and not afraid to get his shots up. The Cofer/Kabengele frontcourt pairing is a particularly interesting one offensively as it allows FSU to play 5-out at times.

    Wings: Technically, you could list Mann here as well. He's the starting SF. But FSU has so many wings that I wanted to balance the list out. Aside from Mann, the other starter is MJ Walker (6'5", 215lb sophomore). Walker is an elite athlete and good 3pt shooter who hasn't quite figured out how to play the rest of the game of basketball. The former McDonald's All-American somehow manages to be an inefficient offensive player despite shooting 38% on a high volume of 3s, mainly because he takes and misses a lot of bad 2pt shots. And despite his size and athleticism, he's an awful rebounder and a poor defender overall. It's a disappointing waste of talent. Still, because he's so athletic and can shoot, he is capable of a monster night at any time because he can get his shot off against anyone. The other primary wing is PJ Savoy (6'4", 210lb senior). Savoy isn't overly athletic, but he's on the court to do one thing: shoot 3s. And he puts them up, for sure. Over 80% of his FGA at FSU have been 3s. He shoots 5 3s per 20 minutes this year, and that's substantially down from his rate in previous years. He's struggling a bit from 3 this year, but he's a 38% career shooter from deep. Leaving him open is a baaaaaaad idea. Anthony Polite (6'6", 215lb redshirt freshman from Switzerland) is next on the long list of wings. Polite missed last season with knee problems. He is a lanky player with good shooting touch, but still is working to catch up to the pace of play offensively. Finally, Devin Vassell (6'5", 170lb freshman) rounds out the wings (sort of). Vassell can shoot and provides yet another pesky defensive presence, leading the team in steal rate.

    Guards: Trent Forrest (6'4", 215lb junior) is the PG. He's a steady-Eddie at the position. Nothing flashy, just a tough, physical, pass-first type of guard. Technically a combo guard, he's got a PG mindset and a SG body. He's not the steadiest of ballhandlers though, and has been turnover-prone this year. But in a half-court game, he's a solid contributor. He's also a very strong and willing defender. Behind (and sometimes alongside) Forrest is David Nichols (6'1", 185lb grad transfer from Albany). Nichols is the flashier player of the two combo guards at FSU. He's a terrific 3pt threat and not bashful about shooting. He is, however, fairly sloppy with the ball, with a team-worst turnover rate. Still, he's a nice complement stylistically to the bigger, more physical, less 3pt shooty Forrest.

    FSU has a ton of depth and athleticism, and they are committed to making the game a war of attrition. I won't even venture a guess as to the outcome, because we could lose close or blow them out. Neither is really out of the realm of feasibility. TRank has us as an 8-point favorite, and that feels reasonable. As does our ~75% chance of winning. But that ~25% chance of FSU winning seems more glaring than it should be on paper.
    Thanks for the summary. Always helpful to reacquaint with our conference rivals.

    I assume with Koumadje starting, this is a game where Marques should be helpful. Although FSU's 3-point ability potentially runs counter to that.

    Interesting to watch.

    - Chillin

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ChillinDuke View Post
    Thanks for the summary. Always helpful to reacquaint with our conference rivals.

    I assume with Koumadje starting, this is a game where Marques should be helpful. Although FSU's 3-point ability potentially runs counter to that.

    Interesting to watch.

    - Chillin
    on the one hand Koumadje seems like precisely the kind of player that Bolden should flourish against, and on that same hand Big 'Ques has been playing really well lately. On the other hand, Bolden should not really play a moment that Koumadje is not on the floor since Javin would be a much better match for their other C, as well as being able to move better to keep up with the rest of their 3pt shooting options.
    Iow, this might be a game in which Big 'Ques moves back to the starting rotation.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK View Post
    And we've had some nightmare experiences in that arena. The seating is very steep, and when it's full, it can get crazy. I'm betting it's jam packed full for Duke. Duke has seen that court stormed more than once.
    Lots of the best seats for sale at $800 or more. Sounds like a sell-out to me
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    With a couple exceptions, they're all hard. Of ACC teams against which we've played more than 3 games since 2000-01, FSU is the 6th hardest to play (out of 11), but only one game "behind" the hardest to play (if "hardest" can be measured by Duke's win/loss record in that venue).

    DUKE ROAD GAMES, 2000-01 to 2017-18 (ranked from "hardest" to "easiest" venue)

    Code:
    Team		W	L	pct
    Louisville	1	2	0.333
    N Dame		1	2	0.333
    Syracuse	1	2	0.333
    NCSU		7	6	0.538
    Maryland	7	6	0.538
    UNC		10	8	0.556
    Miami		6	4	0.600
    Va Tech		6	4	0.600
    FSU		8	5	0.615
    Wake		10	6	0.625
    UVa		7	4	0.636
    Pitt		2	1	0.667
    Clemson		9	3	0.750
    BC		7	2	0.778
    Ga Tech		11	2	0.846
    Wow, thanks for putting that together. 6-4 at both Miami and Virginia Tech since they joined the ACC from the Big East, ouch.
       

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Earth
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronDuke View Post
    I watched the first half of the FSU at UVA game last weekend and didn't come away all that impressed with FSU. They are long and have some big guards and lanky forwards/centers. I would expect Duke to be a 9-11 point favorite on the road
    I would agree. FSU is probably not as good as the polls and computers suggest. FL wasn't good in November, they escaped a 2nd round Purdue team, and lost to a 2nd round Villanova team. If they are top 15, there's a gap between top 5 and top 15, which is what my Snellen chart says right now.

    For whatever reason, Bart Torvik's site has predicted Duke with near perfection in the first 2 ACC games. Both Duke's scoring total and margin of victory were within 2 points.) Duke 83-75 (down from 17 two weeks ago) is what was there yesterday. Sagarin also says Duke by about 9.

    It's only going to be 65-70 and cloudy/rainy in Tally on Saturday. I was hoping for better weather.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronDuke View Post
    Wow, thanks for putting that together. 6-4 at both Miami and Virginia Tech since they joined the ACC from the Big East, ouch.
    7-6 versus NCSU over that same time frame = even BIGGER ouch...
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Lots of the best seats for sale at $800 or more. Sounds like a sell-out to me
    Back in the late 90s and early 00s, when I lived in Tallahassee and was an officer of the local Duke Club, we would host a pregame function with a buffet dinner and "coach talk" in the Leon County Civic Center before the Duke vs. FSU game. Back then, even though the Duke game was the only one that sold out every season (which is probably still the case), I was able for many years to buy a block of seats for the Duke Alumni Association (which sold and distributed tickets to our fans) from FSU's group sales office -- for $5 per seat.

    As for the atmosphere in the Civic Center during Duke games, I could write volumes, but will simply note for now that the student section may be even more obnoxiously crude than Maryland's -- they were the ones who held up signs and chanted obscene taunts about J.J. Redick and his sister -- while the FSU fans in general routinely demonstrate their ignorance of the rules by loudly booing every call that goes against the Noles, no matter how plainly correct, and constantly screaming that the officials should whistle Duke for imaginary fouls or traveling violations. Even after moving away from Tallahassee, we continued to return and attend the game for a few years. But we finally stopped going about 10 years ago, and I don't miss the experience at all.

  11. #31
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    Feb 2007
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    Earth
    Quote Originally Posted by devildeac View Post
    Guessing this will be f$u's "bowl" game .

    I'd like to hear from some folks who have attended games there comment on the loudness and "quality" of the crowd (sobriety, too, I guess ) and other observations they've had over the last decade or so. From my TV-watching experience, not much has been favorable.
    It's a middle of the road crowd the few times I've gone. Beer is sold in the arena like Wake. It's a pro-style arena like UNC, NCSU, Louisville, UK, but I think they've gotten rid of the 70's plaid/Rupp Arena seat cushions. The rule of thumb for ACC road games as I've been to them all: nothing is Cameron, but I don't want this to digress to a true road game discussion.

    When goduke posts the actual series results in the game notes, I would like to see Duke (as #1) v. other Duke comparison. 2001 and 2006 (which Doug Gottlieb blamed on the officials) might really be outliers that the media just likes to endorse. Of course, we could argue that UVA is actually #1 if we win.

  12. #32
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronDuke View Post
    Wow, thanks for putting that together. 6-4 at both Miami and Virginia Tech since they joined the ACC from the Big East, ouch.
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK View Post
    7-6 versus NCSU over that same time frame = even BIGGER ouch...
    What are we baselining ouch expectations against, though? For example, there was a recent John Gasaway article (ESPN insider) that showed that Duke won road games essentially at the same rate as fellow bluebloods UNC and Kentucky. (Duke and UNC were a little bit behind Kentucky, but Kentucky also plays in the weaker conference). Road games are tough and will provide ouchies for pretty much anyone.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK View Post
    But Duke's troubles in Tallahassee stretches back into the 90s as well...
    This is not true. Duke's record in Tallahassee from 1992 (FSU's first year in the ACC) to 2000 was 7-2, with one of the losses during the lost season of 1995 (a year in which we lost all eight ACC road games), and the other one a one-point loss in 1993. The only ACC team during that period against which Duke fared better on the road than against Florida State was NC State (8-1).

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    What are we baselining ouch expectations against, though? For example, there was a recent John Gasaway article (ESPN insider) that showed that Duke won road games essentially at the same rate as fellow bluebloods UNC and Kentucky. (Duke and UNC were a little bit behind Kentucky, but Kentucky also plays in the weaker conference). Road games are tough and will provide ouchies for pretty much anyone.
    My expectation against State was that Duke was probably the better team in all 13 games, and by a large margin in many of those games, and to go barely .500 indicates a road venue that is particularly unkind. Meanwhile, Duke does very well in Chapel Hill and very well in Charlottesville, even though you wouldn't expect that necessarily, given the quality of the opponent. We've won a couple games in Chapel Hill in the last 6 years or so we had no business winning....
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Northern VA
    Certainly not a fun place for Duke to play, especially given their often brutally physical style of play.

    My biggest memory of Duke playing at FSU will always be the year that the Shelden Williams team went in there (2006?), played the entire game 5 on 8 -- there was a ESPN-pushed theme that year that "Duke gets all the calls," and we'd just come off of a close win at BC where some late calls went our way. The ACC made damn certain it didn't happen in Tallahassee. We literally fouled out our entire starting roster, were called for over thirty (!) fouls - FSU was called for well less than half that - and as a result FSU eeked out a tight win. This was one of those games where K pulled the primary players at the very end for their safety, as a storming was imminent.

    And for our trouble, UNC-grad/announcer Stew Scott led the broadcast off at Sports Center with a story about "Does Duke get all the calls?" He highlighted a single play where Williams "got away with" a 'almost goal tending' non-call - it was the right call - and Stew spent 5 minutes disecting whether this proved that we were getting all of the calls. I think it featured interviews with such luminaries as "Sweaty Gary" Williams. It must've burned Stew to no end that his story ran on a night where we were called for about 35 fouls, to maybe 14 for FSU...

  16. #36
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by duke2x View Post
    I would agree. FSU is probably not as good as the polls and computers suggest. FL wasn't good in November, they escaped a 2nd round Purdue team, and lost to a 2nd round Villanova team. If they are top 15, there's a gap between top 5 and top 15, which is what my Snellen chart says right now.

    For whatever reason, Bart Torvik's site has predicted Duke with near perfection in the first 2 ACC games. Both Duke's scoring total and margin of victory were within 2 points.) Duke 83-75 (down from 17 two weeks ago) is what was there yesterday. Sagarin also says Duke by about 9.

    It's only going to be 65-70 and cloudy/rainy in Tally on Saturday. I was hoping for better weather.
    Yes, I meant to mention that FSU has been trending downward all season after “peaking” against UF to open the year. Part of that is that they only recently got Cofer back, and he hasn’t played well yet. But they have indeed been playing more like a top-40 team than a top-15 team for the past month or so.

  17. #37
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    Feb 2007
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    Richmond, Va
    Quote Originally Posted by -bdbd View Post
    Certainly not a fun place for Duke to play, especially given their often brutally physical style of play.

    My biggest memory of Duke playing at FSU will always be the year that the Shelden Williams team went in there (2006?), played the entire game 5 on 8 -- there was a ESPN-pushed theme that year that "Duke gets all the calls," and we'd just come off of a close win at BC where some late calls went our way. The ACC made damn certain it didn't happen in Tallahassee. We literally fouled out our entire starting roster, were called for over thirty (!) fouls - FSU was called for well less than half that - and as a result FSU eeked out a tight win. This was one of those games where K pulled the primary players at the very end for their safety, as a storming was imminent.

    And for our trouble, UNC-grad/announcer Stew Scott led the broadcast off at Sports Center with a story about "Does Duke get all the calls?" He highlighted a single play where Williams "got away with" a 'almost goal tending' non-call - it was the right call - and Stew spent 5 minutes disecting whether this proved that we were getting all of the calls. I think it featured interviews with such luminaries as "Sweaty Gary" Williams. It must've burned Stew to no end that his story ran on a night where we were called for about 35 fouls, to maybe 14 for FSU...
    I remember watching that game and thinking it was the "posterchild" for any and all "Duke gets all the calls" crap. Still do. Should be an interesting/rough game. FWIW, I like the mid-afternoon Saturday games as it doesn't result in the long wait to get to the tip, like many 9pm or NCAA tourney games do. This will be two Saturdays in a row I get to double-dip with hoops and NFL (Go Cowboys!!),
    Last edited by duketaylor; 01-10-2019 at 09:20 PM. Reason: sp

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Yes, I meant to mention that FSU has been trending downward all season after “peaking” against UF to open the year. Part of that is that they only recently got Cofer back, and he hasn’t played well yet. But they have indeed been playing more like a top-40 team than a top-15 team for the past month or so.
    ...and part of that is the Leonard Hamilton effect....
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

  19. #39
    Join Date
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    DC and DE Beach
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    DUKE ROAD GAMES, 2000-01 to 2017-18 (ranked from "hardest" to "easiest" venue)

    Code:
    Team		W	L	pct
    Louisville	1	2	0.333
    N Dame		1	2	0.333
    Syracuse	1	2	0.333
    NCSU		7	6	0.538
    Maryland	7	6	0.538
    UNC		10	8	0.556
    Miami		6	4	0.600
    Va Tech		6	4	0.600
    FSU		8	5	0.615
    Wake		10	6	0.625
    UVa		7	4	0.636
    Pitt		2	1	0.667
    Clemson		9	3	0.750
    BC		7	2	0.778
    Ga Tech		11	2	0.846

    Not to suggest that playing in Tallahassee will be easy, it should be noted that this Duke team has yet to play on the road at the three "hardest" ACC venues -- Louisville, Notre Dame and Syracuse -- as well as at Virginia Tech, all of whom can lay claim to be harder for Duke than Florida State. Greatest awaits!

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Gator View Post
    Back in the late 90s and early 00s, when I lived in Tallahassee and was an officer of the local Duke Club, we would host a pregame function with a buffet dinner and "coach talk" in the Leon County Civic Center before the Duke vs. FSU game. Back then, even though the Duke game was the only one that sold out every season (which is probably still the case), I was able for many years to buy a block of seats for the Duke Alumni Association (which sold and distributed tickets to our fans) from FSU's group sales office -- for $5 per seat.

    As for the atmosphere in the Civic Center during Duke games, I could write volumes, but will simply note for now that the student section may be even more obnoxiously crude than Maryland's -- they were the ones who held up signs and chanted obscene taunts about J.J. Redick and his sister -- while the FSU fans in general routinely demonstrate their ignorance of the rules by loudly booing every call that goes against the Noles, no matter how plainly correct, and constantly screaming that the officials should whistle Duke for imaginary fouls or traveling violations. Even after moving away from Tallahassee, we continued to return and attend the game for a few years. But we finally stopped going about 10 years ago, and I don't miss the experience at all.
    And speaking of obscene, Jameis Winston hadn’t even matriculated yet.

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