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  1. #81
    [QUOTE=BeachBlueDevil;1114790]1. Is Duke losing with Cam starting? No.

    2. Is Duke winning with Cam starting? Yes.

    So I would say the correct answer here is keep Cam in the starting lineup. The best way to break a slump is to keep on shooting and the only way to get that is in Practice and PT.

    FIFY

  2. #82
    Join Date
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    Camís play (thus far) does not make me want to draft him in the top 5 in 2019, but heís certainly good enough to play 25-30 minutes on any college team. Elite Duke players sometimes briefly come off the bench, but thatís often because of effort. Cam certainly seems to be working hard and is a good teammateóI donít think he needs to be pushed to be more motivated...
       

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmymax View Post
    I just realized that Jack's block-to-turnover ratio is 3.29, while Cam's is 0.12. This should not be overlooked, unless you have more important things to do.
    The point being that it is not all about Cam's shooting slump but more about all around quality of play, including turnovers, fouls, defense and also of course scoring efficiency. Cam is judged by more knowledgeable basketball people to have a high upside but he is a freshman and is having a learning curve struggle. Jack is an upperclassman who is obviously doing a great job on defense, with rebounding and can hit the outside shot if set up to do so.

    Coach K has to decide what is in the best interest of the team, to let Cam proceed on his learning curve as a starter or go with Jack and reduce Cam's minutes. I trust in coach K to make that decision.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeachBlueDevil View Post

    The best way to break a slump is to keep on shooting and the only way to get that is in PT and practice.
    This is exactly right, and frankly is more important than whether we win or lose a game in January. If Cam is struggling a bit to adjust to the college game, sitting him on the bench will not help. We will need him in March.
    1991 -- 1992 -- 2001 -- 2010 -- 2015

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmymax View Post
    I just realized that Jack's block-to-turnover ratio is 3.29, while Cam's is 0.12. This should not be overlooked, unless you have more important things to do.
    Is that a real stat? I've never seen it tracked before. What does a measure of block-to-turnover ratio tell us about a player? Because it kind of seems like two cherry-picked metrics that don't have a lot to do with each other.

    You probably could have made a clearer point by looking at steals-to-turnover ratio--that would give a rough estimate of the impact a player is having on the number of Duke possessions. Jack doesn't get many steals (15 so far) but also doesn't turn the ball over (only 7), for a ratio of 2.14:1. On the other side, Cam has generated a lot of steals (28, second on the team) but is leading the team in turnovers (42), for a ratio of 0.66:1. That's probably a more telling stat for the point you were trying to make.

    But that doesn't tell the whole story, because turnovers are impacted by usage. Jack is a role player whose function in the offense is limited to catch-and-shoot. And he's been great at that! Yay! But Cam has shown some ability to do more, and having him as another person who can create shots is very valuable. So far, his efforts to create off the dribble have resulted in more turnovers, but I'm hoping he can get those turnovers down as the season progresses.

    I remain convinced it is in the best long-term interest of the team to continue starting Cam Reddish, who mind you, is a very good basketball player. Especially as long as we keep wining most games by 20+.

    But by all means, this is the internet, so let's shine a spotlight on one of the few disappointing developments in this season so far.

  6. #86
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    This is exactly right, and frankly is more important than whether we win or lose a game in January. If Cam is struggling a bit to adjust to the college game, sitting him on the bench will not help. We will need him in March.
    I'm a strong proponent that players can get almost as much of that adjustment in practice. That said, given we have the leeway, there's no reason not to get more in games. I think Cam gets more benefit from those minutes than Jack does.


    "If you don't address the things you're not doing well when you're winning the winning will eventually stop."

    -David Cutcliffe

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Truth&Justise View Post
    Is that a real stat? I've never seen it tracked before. What does a measure of block-to-turnover ratio tell us about a player? Because it kind of seems like two cherry-picked metrics that don't have a lot to do with each other.

    You probably could have made a clearer point by looking at steals-to-turnover ratio--that would give a rough estimate of the impact a player is having on the number of Duke possessions. Jack doesn't get many steals (15 so far) but also doesn't turn the ball over (only 7), for a ratio of 2.14:1. On the other side, Cam has generated a lot of steals (28, second on the team) but is leading the team in turnovers (42), for a ratio of 0.66:1. That's probably a more telling stat for the point you were trying to make.

    But that doesn't tell the whole story, because turnovers are impacted by usage. Jack is a role player whose function in the offense is limited to catch-and-shoot. And he's been great at that! Yay! But Cam has shown some ability to do more, and having him as another person who can create shots is very valuable. So far, his efforts to create off the dribble have resulted in more turnovers, but I'm hoping he can get those turnovers down as the season progresses.

    I remain convinced it is in the best long-term interest of the team to continue starting Cam Reddish, who mind you, is a very good basketball player. Especially as long as we keep wining most games by 20+.

    But by all means, this is the internet, so let's shine a spotlight on one of the few disappointing developments in this season so far.
    Cam is nothing more than a role player on this Duke team too and Jack is much better at being a complimentary role player than Reddish right now with his spacing, rebounding, defensive awareness and lack of turnovers.

    You're romanticizing Cam as if he's filling this sort of Tatum or Ingram role on this team when in reality he's just a spot up shooter and team defender.

    We already have 2 high usage players in RJ and Zion and there's only ball to go around.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    I'm a strong proponent that players can get almost as much of that adjustment in practice.
    I don't believe Cam's issues (poor ball handling, foolish turnovers, shooting slump, etc.) can be mostly resolved solely in practice. I think Cam is experiencing televised game pressure and needs PT to resolve his issues. I also suspect he already looks substantially better in practice.

  9. #89
    I saw this today and thought it was a joke, but reading some of the comments, there are some good points made. However, I like the current starting lineup and I like the current rotation plan.

    The team is winning comfortably, despite our habit of playing not up to par for the first 15 minutes. Our defense has been a killer and defense can make up for a lot of offensive issues.

    Cam is clearly an excellent player, but he seems to be playing ahead of himself. Game time is the only way to adjust that. Practice is good (our second team would probably be in the upper parts of D1 programs), but game environment (especially on the road in the ACC) cannot be reproduced in practice.

    Love Jack and he could start, but he's getting starter minutes anyway.

    Unlike with past Duke teams, K doesn't seem to be running guys 35 minutes plus. That should help down the road with fatigue and injury.

    It's early January. We play for March. FSU will be our first top 25 ACC road game and will give us a better sense of what our team needs.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    I'm a strong proponent that players can get almost as much of that adjustment in practice. That said, given we have the leeway, there's no reason not to get more in games. I think Cam gets more benefit from those minutes than Jack does.
    That depends on your definition of "almost as much"....it also depends on the player too. If by almost, you mean virtually the same...I would disagree. If by almost, you mean significantly helpful but not the same...I would agree. Then there's the fact - one that coaches generally do not like to even admit, because coaches are really big on practice - is that some guys simply cannot blossom in practice. Some guys cannot handle it in games. All these kids are wired differently.

    I'm not saying Cam fits this - I've no idea - but we see examples of it in every sport.

    I know Cut has said something to the effect that he doesn't even believe in the concept of "practice players" versus "game players." It's a rare situation where I would beg to differ.
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

  11. #91
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    Fayetteville, NC
    My how this board has changed over the years. I remember when I first got here my throw downs with Jumbo over the practice and playing time issue. Back then the board was squarely in favor of, "The best players start and you earn your court time from practice." Now I'm seeing something a bit different or at least in this case it appears that way.

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    JW started the second half of the Clemson game. (And rewarded K with a three pointer with barely 15 seconds ticked off the clock.)

    (I don't think he started over Cam, though.)
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    I'm a strong proponent that players can get almost as much of that adjustment in practice. That said, given we have the leeway, there's no reason not to get more in games. I think Cam gets more benefit from those minutes than Jack does.
    I would have to 100% disagree with that. Growing up playing sports of all kinds made me realize how well an individual does in practice has almost no affect on their game day playing. Getting into a game with something on the line is what makes you learn.





    *Shouldn't have said 100%. It depends on the individual in question and this is where you have to hope the coaches know what type of learner Cam in this case is. The way it's been treated suggests they think Cam learns better in real games, however of no progress is made after a time I could see a situation where they try him as the 6th man for a little bit. I for one am not as disappointed as many of you seem to be with him.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" -Stephen Hawking

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    My how this board has changed over the years. I remember when I first got here my throw downs with Jumbo over the practice and playing time issue. Back then the board was squarely in favor of, "The best players start and you earn your court time from practice." Now I'm seeing something a bit different or at least in this case it appears that way.
    I don't think it's just this board....I think coaches are coming to realize that while earning field or court time comes from practice - for most people most of the time - that there are certain great practice players who cannot produce in games...and there are poor practice players who suddenly explode when given game time. Tom Brady comes to mind. Shared the QB time at Michigan with (enter forgettable name here) and then picked in sixth round in the NFL - and then rode the bench until Bledsoe got injured. The rest is history.

    But clearly there was zip zero nada indication in Brady's practices at Michigan or New England that he was an all world QB. He has become a great practice player and preparer, but that's NOT where he established himself.
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    JW started the second half of the Clemson game. (And rewarded K with a three pointer with barely 15 seconds ticked off the clock.)

    (I don't think he started over Cam, though.)
    He did start the second half of the Clemson game, and he DID start it over Reddish. But that was - as Coach K specifically pointed out - because Reddish already had 3 fouls at the half.

  16. #96
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    Winston-Salem
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK View Post
    I don't think it's just this board...I think coaches are coming to realize that while earning field or court time comes from practice - for most people most of the time - that there are certain great practice players who cannot produce in games...and there are poor practice players who suddenly explode when given game time. Tom Brady comes to mind. Shared the QB time at Michigan with (enter forgettable name here) and then picked in sixth round in the NFL - and then rode the bench until Bledsoe got injured. The rest is history.

    But clearly there was zip zero nada indication in Brady's practices at Michigan or New England that he was an all world QB. He has become a great practice player and preparer, but that's NOT where he established himself.
    Of course, we all know The Answer's answer.
    "Amazing what a minute can do."

  17. #97
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    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK View Post
    I don't think it's just this board...I think coaches are coming to realize that while earning field or court time comes from practice - for most people most of the time - that there are certain great practice players who cannot produce in games...and there are poor practice players who suddenly explode when given game time. Tom Brady comes to mind. Shared the QB time at Michigan with (enter forgettable name here) and then picked in sixth round in the NFL - and then rode the bench until Bledsoe got injured. The rest is history.

    But clearly there was zip zero nada indication in Brady's practices at Michigan or New England that he was an all world QB. He has become a great practice player and preparer, but that's NOT where he established himself.
    Yeah practice is for those who can for a lack of a better term show off or better yet showcase a talent(s). It doesn't mean they can do it at game speed.


    Quick anecdote, I tried out for my soccer team and barely made it (listed as a reserve) when I was younger. First game of the season we had a guy twist his ankle so I was put in. I continued to be the best midfielder every game for the rest of the season. I didn't show very well in practices because my dribble ability is more straightforward, average speed, and only decently accurate when shooting at the goal. In games though I just had a great "feel" for the game that leaped me over my more athletic peers.

    Brady never had the biggest arm and nobody would call him athletic I hope. He does however process what he see on the field better than almost anyone and prepares for each game with a ton of film.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" -Stephen Hawking

  18. #98
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Truth&Justise View Post
    But by all means, this is the internet, so let's shine a spotlight on one of the few disappointing developments in this season so far.
    You first try to improve the things that appear to most need improving, right? Why would we be discussing, say, Zion or Tre when talking about ways to make the team better? Cam seems the obvious choice at this point in time.

    Maybe next month the discussion will have moved on from Cam to some other aspect of the team, like, perhaps, the team managers not running as fast or frantically as they used to at halftime and at the end of games. In fact, I think weíve already seen a regression. Stay tuned.
       

  19. #99

    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    My how this board has changed over the years. I remember when I first got here my throw downs with Jumbo over the practice and playing time issue. Back then the board was squarely in favor of, "The best players start and you earn your court time from practice." Now I'm seeing something a bit different or at least in this case it appears that way.
    Good points; a few thoughts

    1. Coach K starts players and adjusts rotations based on matchups.
    2. Perhaps Cam is performing very well in practice and continuing to earn the start. But itís not translating in the last few games. So when he struggles ó itís a quick sub ó just like for anyone. Itís like someone who is a rock star on the driving range, but itís not translating to the golf course. Earlier someone mentioned yips. In terms of coaching a great talent like Cam ó you keep sending them in.
    3. Maybe K is coaching to the upside. Meaning, everyone saw how unstoppable this team was when they rolled Kentucky. Cam was integral and played great in that game. All season theyíve been trying to match that level and get even better. He knows the potential of this team when hitting on all cylinders.
    4. maybe K knows and sees that having this lineup has lit a fire under Jack and his game play reflects that. It also may give Duke an advantage over other teams who arenít prepared for someone coming off the bench and playing so well. My point is maybe thereís a motivational element K is employing. Jack really is a good cerebral player and captain. Maybe heís on the bench assessing the matchup to start and brings in the adjustment.

    Either way, if Duke is winning big ó why mess with the formula when youíre expecting in a game soon Cam will have a breakout and get back to what his potential is. Iíd give it another game or two...

  20. #100
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    Oct 2013
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    Dallas, TX
    I agree that if Cam were going to ever come off the bench, the Wake Forest game would have been the time to do it. I think at this point, the games are going to be much closer, so experimenting with a different rotation against a team like FSU in their house would be more likely to disrupt what we've been doing than help.

    Cam did look more comfortable to me in the final 2-3 minutes of the Wake game, when he was in the game as the primary ball handler. He didn't do anything crazy, and it was garbage time, but he seemed to be much more relaxed with his dribbling and passing than usual, and didn't try to force things. Maybe that's a reach, but I do think a huge part of the problem is that he has had a rough time adjusting to deferring to multiple other guys. I believe he will get there, but I completely disagree that he should be used as "just" a spot up shooter and team defender. That's a huge waste of his skills. We have the entire rest of the conference schedule to integrate the best version of Cam into this offense.

    He's a ridiculously talented player (I think some people here have forgotten that). This is not a Tre Duval situation (as in, a guy who was a bit overrated coming out of HS). Cam is an elite, elite talent, so I'm still confident he will find his way.
    Last edited by kAzE; 01-10-2019 at 12:21 PM.

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