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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by DUKIE V(A) View Post
    Both Cam and Jack have contributed a great deal to our team success this year. They have played similar minutes with Cam scoring more (by 5.6 points a game) and Jack rebounding better (by 4 rebounds a game). They have both excelled in individual and team defense (with Cam leading the team in steals and Jack second in blocks). I expect both to build and get better as the season progresses.

    In my view, quite a few posters are being overly harsh on Cam. He is having a few growing pains but so do most freshman not named RJ, Tre, or Zion. Overall, he has been a very, very good overall player. Cam is special and will prove that over the course of season. He will quiet the critics.
    In the old days- the line was- the best thing about Freshmen is that they become sophomores. In this day of one-and-done the frustration is greater because they are not becoming sophomores. The fact that Cam is not coming back coupled with typical Freshman mistakes leads to a more critical view of his poor play. His stock is not changing much because he has all the gifts you want to see- except consistency.
    Last edited by dukelifer; 01-09-2019 at 06:15 PM.
       

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by DUKIE V(A) View Post
    In my view, quite a few posters are being overly harsh on Cam. He is having a few growing pains but so do most freshman not named RJ, Tre, or Zion. Overall, he has been a very, very good overall player. Cam is special and will prove that over the course of season. He will quiet the critics.
    Cam has certainly not been at his best the last six games.

    In those games, he has shot 25.4% (18.4% from three), for 7.7 ppg, along with an a/to ratio of 0.43:1.

    From January 11, 2015 to January 25, 2015 (5 games), Justise Winslow shot 23.3% (20.0% from three), for 4.4 ppg, along with an a/to ratio of 0.57:1.

    At the time, there were some people around here panicking about what K should do about Justise, but my recollection is not nearly as many as are clamoring now. Fortunately, K stuck with him and Justise snapped out of it. Hopefully Cam will as well.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    I disagree

    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK View Post
    This thread has sort of evolved/devolved into an issue of Trust in K, etc...so I thought I'd stir the pot a bit.

    Do I trust in K? Yes, absolutely, I trust that he's been the best person on the planet to coach Duke BB for almost four decades, and that the vast majority of his decisions are the right ones, and some of his decisions have proven spectacular, and his success has been spectacular. I trust in all of that, and that we as Duke fans are truly fortunate to be living through that, especially the ones who suffered in Duke's post Bubas / pre K days - when State, the cheats and Maryland were national powers and Duke was not relevant.

    I also trust that everybody makes mistakes...and...and...I also trust in the theory of the wisdom of having a fresh set of eyes on something at times...a set of eyes far enough away to get the 30 thousand foot view...or the forest for the trees view...whatever cliche / analogy you want to use. I trust in the theory that sometimes a blind spot can develop even among genius level people that are always so close to a situation. I also trust that in many situations, clearly most situations, being close to the situation is what is required to fully understand it. Life ain't easy...this stuff can get complicated...

    IOW...there are some really knowledgeable and intuitive people on DBR for example...and I"m betting that at times, when they disagreed with what K was doing, that from time to time the outsider has been correct.

    And of course, I think a total 100% blind trust in anyone makes for a boring forum. That said, I fully agree with his keeping Cam in the starting lineup so far. I also really support his use of a deeper bench this season too!
    I donít think I am saying Trust in K. Iím saying that none of us have access to the information to know what the right decision is. I wouldnít say that about switching to a zone or telling Zoubs to miss that free throw against Butler. Iím guessing others are with me on this.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    This is where I am. Without K coming out and saying why he's playing cam, it's impossible to make an argument that he's right or wrong...and while the possibility exists that he's objectively "wrong," it's far more likely that we just don't have the data to arrive at the same conclusion he does.

    A good example might be the missed free throw in the 2010 title game. After the game, some people might have just said "trust in K!!!," but the decision he made is likely statistically the wrong decision. When he explained it, the truth was far more interesting...about how he thought about how we would perform in overtime, with fatigue, and foul trouble, etc, and realized that our chances of winning in OT were not 50/50.

    The point being, simply saying "trust in K" absolves the fan of any sort of thought about WHY K might be right despite appearances, and thus clouds them to questioning when K might be wrong, which does happen.

    Here's a good passage from HPMOR:



    Simply chanting "trust in K" makes you equally good at explaining any outcome.
    Quoting Harry Potter in an argument to bolster your opinion is a concession of the argument.
       

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Cam has certainly not been at his best the last six games.

    In those games, he has shot 25.4% (18.4% from three), for 7.7 ppg, along with an a/to ratio of 0.43:1.

    From January 11, 2015 to January 25, 2015 (5 games), Justise Winslow shot 23.3% (20.0% from three), for 4.4 ppg, along with an a/to ratio of 0.57:1.

    At the time, there were some people around here panicking about what K should do about Justise, but my recollection is not nearly as many as are clamoring now. Fortunately, K stuck with him and Justise snapped out of it. Hopefully Cam will as well.
    It is rather astonishing the way you consistently pull these stats seemingly out of the ether. I donít always agree with the conclusions drawn by the stats you use (though I often do agree), but my gosh, itís something to see.
       

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Good point

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    It is rather astonishing the way you consistently pull these stats seemingly out of the ether. I donít always agree with the conclusions drawn by the stats you use (though I often do agree), but my gosh, itís something to see.
    Maybe Kedsy is just making the stats up? Anybody checking his work?

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    Quoting Harry Potter in an argument to bolster your opinion is a concession of the argument.
    Apparently you're unaware of what methods of rationality is. It's not the "harry potter" you know. It's author, Elizer Yudkowsky, is a noted rationalist thinker and writer...who in this novel uses the harry potter universe to convey paradigms of rational thinking to the readers.
    Zion Williamson broke my brain.

    "If you don't address the things you're not doing well when you're winning the winning will eventually stop."

    -David Cutcliffe

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    I don’t think I am saying Trust in K. I’m saying that none of us have access to the information to know what the right decision is. I wouldn’t say that about switching to a zone or telling Zoubs to miss that free throw against Butler. I’m guessing others are with me on this.
    Interesting you mention the Zoubs FT versus Butler...where I've always thought that was the RIGHT decision, but I don't think K explained it fully in the presser. Then again, he was thrilled to win another Natty...probably not too concerned about anything else at that moment.

    BUT, since you brought it up...Zoubs was only 50% shooter anyway...so encouraging him to make it left only a 50% chance he would make it. With such a 50-50 situation, if your team knows what the outcome will be because an intentional miss was called, they should be more able to get the rebound. Meanwhile, the Butler players had to think "do this" with a make or "do that" with a miss...and of course, most long FT misses bounce around and get tipped around for several seconds before anyone gets control. I'm sure that's what K was going for.

    Now, as it turned out, the ball took a perfect bounce to Heyward, who took a perfect angle down the court, got a perfect (illegal) pick and then almost hit the perfect shot. Zoub could do that a thousand times, and Butler would never again get the quality of shot they got. They would rarely get that quick and easy of a rebound, let alone the other. So everything went perfect for Butler, but Duke still won. The odds were with K in that situation.

    A 75% FT shooter? Different calculation. (the irony is, Zoub's first FT was so perfect, he may have well hit another one...)
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Cam has certainly not been at his best the last six games.

    In those games, he has shot 25.4% (18.4% from three), for 7.7 ppg, along with an a/to ratio of 0.43:1.

    From January 11, 2015 to January 25, 2015 (5 games), Justise Winslow shot 23.3% (20.0% from three), for 4.4 ppg, along with an a/to ratio of 0.57:1.

    At the time, there were some people around here panicking about what K should do about Justise, but my recollection is not nearly as many as are clamoring now. Fortunately, K stuck with him and Justise snapped out of it. Hopefully Cam will as well.
    I think what you are recalling as a relative lack of clamoring on the board /panicking about what K should do about Justise's shooting slump during that stretch is that we were fully engaged in a complete melt-down over the porous defense in the losses on Jan. 11 at NC St. (87-75) and Jan. 13 home to Miami (90-74), and the then-historic zone D game at Louisville a few days later!

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    Maybe Kedsy is just making the stats up? Anybody checking his work?
    Umm...yeah. Iíll get right on that.
       

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC

    Very Interesting

    Here was part of my response after the Texas Tech game:
    "I agree with the majority of the board that our highest potential as a team comes with Cam as a starter, however Jack White isn't a bad fall back option. To date the scouting report on Cam seems fairly accurate. I guess the question is how long does Coach K stick with Cam, if Cam never finds that consistency that the team needs? My guess would be the end of January."

    I still believe what I wrote above and agree with the very small minority who believe we can't dig ourselves a hole in big games by not having someone who can hit an outside shot on a steady basis starting for us in those games.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    I still believe what I wrote above and agree with the very small minority who believe we can't dig ourselves a hole in big games by not having someone who can hit an outside shot on a steady basis starting for us in those games.
    Youíre definitely not alone.
       

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Youíre definitely not alone.
    You're better than me -- I got lost in ex-NYC's double negative.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    raleigh
    dang...i guess we'll just have to trust K on this...
    "Either they're going down, or we are! Kirk out!"

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    K giving Jack a starting nod in 1 or 2 games is certainly plausible but also doubtful. It would likely further damage Camís already struggling confidence on offense. Plus, what is overlooked here is Camís excellent play on the other end. He makes very good use of his length on the perimeter and can be disruptive.

    Jack has also shown himself to be very comfortable in his current role and gets tons of minutes. He understands his limitations and strengths and plays his role. I just donít see what good starting him would do for anybody.
       

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by jipops View Post
    K giving Jack a starting nod in 1 or 2 games is certainly plausible but also doubtful. It would likely further damage Camís already struggling confidence on offense. Plus, what is overlooked here is Camís excellent play on the other end. He makes very good use of his length on the perimeter and can be disruptive.

    Jack has also shown himself to be very comfortable in his current role and gets tons of minutes. He understands his limitations and strengths and plays his role. I just donít see what good starting him would do for anybody.
    Both good points. Cam is an excellent defender. And starting Jack means him primarily defending the opposing SF instead of PF. Those two things could make a huge difference to our defense (and probably not in a good way).

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Derm
    I just realized that Jack's block-to-turnover ratio is 3.29, while Cam's is 0.12. This should not be overlooked, unless you have more important things to do.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    It is rather astonishing the way you consistently pull these stats seemingly out of the ether. I donít always agree with the conclusions drawn by the stats you use (though I often do agree), but my gosh, itís something to see.
    Thanks. I think.

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Albemarle, North Carolina
    If Cam gets hurt and can't play.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" -Stephen Hawking

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Beach
    1. Is Duke losing with Cam starting? No.

    2. Is Duke winning with Cam starting? Yes.

    So I would say the correct answer here is keep Cam in the starting lineup. The best way to break a slump is to keep on shooting and the only way to get that is in PT and practice.

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