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  1. #1

    At What Point Should Coach K Start Jack Over Cam?

    I don't know if this is a controversial take but it's no secret that Cam has been in a serious funk since Maui. He's simply unable to drive to the hoop without getting stripped, is a foul machine and his shooting mechanics seem to have regressed.

    Jack White, on the other hand, is a rebounding machine whose defensive instincts are 2nd to only maybe Tre on the team. He's also clearly the best spot up 3 point shooter on the team and his motor simply far surpasses Cam on both ends of the floor.

    If I recall correctly, K brought Ingram off the bench for a few games in the 2015-2016 season. Any chance we see a repeat of that with Cam? I'm thinking it might be good for him to come off the bench for some time and regain his confidence while getting more usage on the 2nd unit. This might light a fire under him.

    I truly believe that a starter spot, minutes and playing time should be earned and not given based on your RSCI ranking and NBA potential.

    Should K institute this change with the best interests of the team in mind? I'm interested in hearing all your thoughts on this.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Midlothian, VA
    Cam has struggled at times. Hes also had some brilliant moments. Key threes. Steals. Hes running his own race, and he will be consistently great one day soon.
       

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Yeah, Jacques is sort of an ideal sixth man spark fellow, he'll get his minutes no matter what. Gotta stick with Cam so progress can be made.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    Yeah, Jacques is sort of an ideal sixth man spark fellow, he'll get his minutes no matter what. Gotta stick with Cam so progress can be made.
    I'm not typically a member of the Duke Player Name Spelling Police, but I thought Jack was an Aussie not a Frenchman

    Perhaps residing in close proximity to the French part of Canada has affected your spelling?

    To your actual point, I agree that I think Jack as 6th man and Cam in the starting lineup is still the way to go. I think Cam as a starter is still the best way to go for long-term growth of this team.
    Coach K on Kyle Singler - "What position does he play? ... He plays winner."

    "Duke is never the underdog" - Quinn Cook

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by tbyers11 View Post
    I'm not typically a member of the Duke Player Name Spelling Police, but I thought Jack was an Aussie not a Frenchman

    Perhaps residing in close proximity to the French part of Canada has affected your spelling?

    To your actual point, I agree that I think Jack as 6th man and Cam in the starting lineup is still the way to go. I think Cam as a starter is still the best way to go for long-term growth of this team.
    Common misperception! IIRC from a history course I took at unc decades ago, shortly after I graduated from Duke (great course, though I don't actually remember any classes, nor the professor), the French freaked out
    after Wellington and the boys routed Nappy at Waterloo. The major fear, of course, was that the Brits would get their hands on millions of bottles of Bordeaux (mon Dieu!) and rename them Claret!

    So a group of Frenchmen set sail with "le vin" for the most remote land they could find, and Voila, L'Australie (later renamed by Queen Victoria or one of her ilk), where they hid the gargantuan cache of Bordeaux really really well.
    So well, I believe, that it has yet to be found.
    Later, of course, in another typical British land grab, it was renamed Australia, and governed as part of the Commonwealth.
    You can confirm this, of course, with Kyrie Irving, fine Dukie, Australian citizen, and a chap well regarded for his knowledge of science and history.

    As for Jacques White, as they say in Quebec, "Je me souviens! I remember!)

    final bonus factoid: Queen Victoria didn't look anything like Jenna Coleman.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Fish80 View Post
    Cam has struggled at times. Hes also had some brilliant moments. Key threes. Steals. Hes running his own race, and he will be consistently great one day soon.
    I think this is putting it mildly though. Cam came into Duke with a HS ranking/repertoire that would suggest he should be an Ingram or Tatum level player and we've seen no indication that he can ever approach that level while in college.

    I have no doubt Cam will improve tremendously in the coming years but I'm not sure its in the team's best interest in its pursuit of a national championship to keep starting him over Jack White, who up to this point has been a better basketball player.

    He definitely has the physical tools to be great; I just hope we see it while he's at Duke.

  7. #7
    This feels like a pretty academic debate to have while we are continually winning games by 20+. Are you arguing we'd be winning by 30+ if Jack White was starting instead of Reddish? Is that a change we'd need to make?

    As it stands, I think White functions pretty well as a sixth man, and I think continuing to start Reddish is our best plan for his long-term growth this season--meaning it gives us the best shot at a championship by the end of the season.

  8. #8
    My recommendation, focus on MPG. Jack will get a lot of PT playing like he did last night!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Nashville
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    My recommendation, focus on MPG. Jack will get a lot of PT playing like he did last night!
    I think this is a more salient point. As it stands, Jack is getting more minutes than Cam. The starting lineup is significant to fans and probably to the psyche of the players. However, in terms of on-court impact, Jack is on the floor more than Cam right now.

    However, I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cam's defense is very, very good. That's worth keeping him on the court, alone. I think if his foul-rate were to decrease, Coach K would play him more minutes even without improvement on offense. Cam has not lived up to the hype on offense, but he's surpassed expectations on defense (to be fair, the entire team has) and he works really hard on that end.

    I don't want this to sound like I'm trying to knock Jack because I'm not. I think he's the biggest and best surprise for Duke this season. His rebounding is sensational. He's not as versatile as Cam on defense, but he's capable when switched onto a smaller defender and is strong enough/athletic enough to hold his own in the post against bigger players. And while he is still very limited on offense, he knows his limitations and sticks to shooting open threes and wide open dunks/layups. In fact, he's only taken 14 total 2-point shots all season and has taken zero jumpers inside the arc. He is maximizing his skills in about the best possible way for a low-usage player.
    Who needs a moral victory when you can have a real one?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by DukeTrinity11 View Post
    I think this is putting it mildly though. Cam came into Duke with a HS ranking/repertoire that would suggest he should be an Ingram or Tatum level player and we've seen no indication that he can ever approach that level while in college.

    I have no doubt Cam will improve tremendously in the coming years but I'm not sure its in the team's best interest in its pursuit of a national championship to keep starting him over Jack White, who up to this point has been a better basketball player.
    100% agree. If I could make it 101% I would.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    Vermont
    Cam's not going to get better just sitting on the bench. Playing him is a wise investment.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Hudson Valley, NY
    I am agnostic about the Cam/JW-who-starts debate. The MPG will fall out to how the team is responding on the floor, no matter who starts.

    HOWEVER, we can't afford a slow start against Virginia. Tossing 8 bricks to open the game along with some sloppy fouling will be hard to over come against the pack line and a team that plays slower than oil-based paint drying on a humid day.

    That said, in all other games, I don't think it will matter one way or the other.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by NYBri View Post
    I am agnostic about the Cam/JW-who-starts debate. The MPG will fall out to how the team is responding on the floor, no matter who starts.

    HOWEVER, we can't afford a slow start against Virginia. Tossing 8 bricks to open the game along with some sloppy fouling will be hard to over come against the pack line and a team that plays slower than oil-based paint drying on a humid day.

    That said, in all other games, I don't think it will matter one way or the other.

    That's not really true. Last year duke made up 12 points on UVA in 7 minutes of gameplay after a slow start.

    http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...meId=400986226

    Yes we eventually lost by 2, but the maxim that you can't overcome even small deficits against UVA is false.


    "If you don't address the things you're not doing well when you're winning the winning will eventually stop."

    -David Cutcliffe

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    Hudson Valley, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    Yes we eventually lost by 2,
    I rest my case. 😎
       

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by NYBri View Post
    I rest my case. ��
    The claim was that a slow start can't be overcome. We did overcome it and lead for some amount of time in the second half.


    "If you don't address the things you're not doing well when you're winning the winning will eventually stop."

    -David Cutcliffe

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    Hudson Valley, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    The claim was that a slow start can't be overcome. We did overcome it and lead for some amount of time in the second half.
    The claim was that a slow start against Virginia would be hard to overcome (in order to win was implied). Without the slow start, we would have won. cheers.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Winston-Salem
    Quote Originally Posted by NYBri View Post
    I rest my case. 😎
    Tyus Jones and Quinn Cook say hello. Down 56-47 with five minutes to play, they win in C'ville 69-63.
    "Amazing what a minute can do."

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Derm
    The rote response around here has been that starting spots are earned in practice (point #1). I'm not a fan of the blind "trust in K" mantra but I'm also not privy to team practices. I certainly understand managing/massaging a top recruit's psyche early on (point #2). But once into the ACC schedule, the top five have to be on the floor: point #1 should take precedence over point #2. I do trust in K to tend to this matter.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmymax View Post
    The rote response around here has been that starting spots are earned in practice (point #1). I'm not a fan of the blind "trust in K" mantra but I'm also not privy to team practices. I certainly understand managing/massaging a top recruit's psyche early on (point #2). But once into the ACC schedule, the top five have to be on the floor: point #1 should take precedence over point #2. I do trust in K to tend to this matter.
    This is where I am. Without K coming out and saying why he's playing cam, it's impossible to make an argument that he's right or wrong...and while the possibility exists that he's objectively "wrong," it's far more likely that we just don't have the data to arrive at the same conclusion he does.

    A good example might be the missed free throw in the 2010 title game. After the game, some people might have just said "trust in K!!!," but the decision he made is likely statistically the wrong decision. When he explained it, the truth was far more interesting...about how he thought about how we would perform in overtime, with fatigue, and foul trouble, etc, and realized that our chances of winning in OT were not 50/50.

    The point being, simply saying "trust in K" absolves the fan of any sort of thought about WHY K might be right despite appearances, and thus clouds them to questioning when K might be wrong, which does happen.

    Here's a good passage from HPMOR:

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
    There's a tale I once heard about some students who came into a physics class, and the teacher showed them a large metal plate near a fire. She ordered them to feel the metal plate, and they felt that the metal nearer the fire was cooler, and the metal further away was warmer. And she said, write down your guess for why this happens. So some students wrote down 'because of how the metal conducts heat', and some students wrote down 'because of how the air moves', and no one said 'this just seems impossible', and the real answer was that before the students came into the room, the teacher turned the plate around."
    "Interesting," said Professor Quirrell. "That does sound similar. Is there a moral?"
    "That your strength as a rationalist is your ability to be more confused by fiction than by reality," said Harry. "If you're equally good at explaining any outcome, you have zero knowledge.
    Simply chanting "trust in K" makes you equally good at explaining any outcome.


    "If you don't address the things you're not doing well when you're winning the winning will eventually stop."

    -David Cutcliffe

  20. #20

    About Trust in K

    This thread has sort of evolved/devolved into an issue of Trust in K, etc...so I thought I'd stir the pot a bit.

    Do I trust in K? Yes, absolutely, I trust that he's been the best person on the planet to coach Duke BB for almost four decades, and that the vast majority of his decisions are the right ones, and some of his decisions have proven spectacular, and his success has been spectacular. I trust in all of that, and that we as Duke fans are truly fortunate to be living through that, especially the ones who suffered in Duke's post Bubas / pre K days - when State, the cheats and Maryland were national powers and Duke was not relevant.

    I also trust that everybody makes mistakes...and...and...I also trust in the theory of the wisdom of having a fresh set of eyes on something at times...a set of eyes far enough away to get the 30 thousand foot view...or the forest for the trees view...whatever cliche / analogy you want to use. I trust in the theory that sometimes a blind spot can develop even among genius level people that are always so close to a situation. I also trust that in many situations, clearly most situations, being close to the situation is what is required to fully understand it. Life ain't easy...this stuff can get complicated...

    IOW...there are some really knowledgeable and intuitive people on DBR for example...and I"m betting that at times, when they disagreed with what K was doing, that from time to time the outsider has been correct.

    And of course, I think a total 100% blind trust in anyone makes for a boring forum. That said, I fully agree with his keeping Cam in the starting lineup so far. I also really support his use of a deeper bench this season too!
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

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