2020 Presidential Election

[dudog84]

D polls out today for Iowa, New Hamster, South Carolina, California, and Texas. Biden holds relatively slim leads in all but S.C. where he is +22.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/

The problem with that is that my 15 seconds of research indicates all D primaries allot delegates proportionately, unlike the electoral college. I say problem because it is likely to lead to a long messy primary season for the Ds (going against an R incumbent) that may very well not be settled until the convention that could lead to a lot of hurt feelings among D constituencies. Some may argue it will make the D candidate stronger. Curious if the board's view is different from mine.

During that 15 seconds I came across this interesting article titled "Did Democrats Just Set Themselves Up for a Fiasco?":

https://prospect.org/article/did-dem...mselves-fiasco

Only the Ds...

[Jeffrey]

racism/nationalism, whatever you want to call it,

My response is not towards CB&B, at all. He is one cool dude.

I’m not sure why these labels are now used interchangeably, I think they are very different words. I’m now pro-capitalism and patriotic. Does that mean I’m a nationalist? I’ve always hated racism.

Seems very inappropriate, of Americans, to use the labels interchangeable, given how extremely sensitive Americans now are about almost every other label.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

My response is not towards CB&B, at all. He is one cool dude.

I’m not sure why these labels are now used interchangeably, I think they are very different words. I’m now pro-capitalism and patriotic. Does that mean I’m a nationalist? I’ve always hated racism.

Seems very inappropriate, of Americans, to use the labels interchangeable, given how extremely sensitive Americans now are about almost every other label.

I mean, not to firebomb this thread, but "nationalism" had been a negative buzzword going back to Germany in the 30s and 40s.

[Jeffrey]

I mean, not to firebomb this thread, but "nationalism" had been a negative buzzword going back to Germany in the 30s and 40s.

Please consult Webster for the definitions. It’s a rather fine line between nationalism and patriotism. Neither are close to racism.

I just did, they’re synonyms!

[Chard]

Unfortunately, Trump himself is making this more of an issue now. It is impossible to go to any leading news website this morning and not see that it is front and center. Here is a screenshot from the MSN page.

Attachment 9626

Trump himself made it more of an issue when he backtracked from the pressure he was applied to disavow the chant at the Greenville rally.

Here is the thing for me. It seems to me that for possibly the first time in a presidential election, racism/nationalism, whatever you want to call it, is going to be a major issue in the campaign. It seems to be unavoidable. The Democrats are doing their best to make it an issue, and that probably works well in their favor. I can't see that the GOP can be too thrilled by it.

When has the GOP really liked much of what Trump says anyways? The White House isn't too worried. Liz Cheney had an interview on Meet The Face this morning (one of those shows).

"This isn't about race. It's not about gender. It's not about religion," she added. "These [Democrats] believe fundamentally in policies that are dangerous to this nation. And as Republicans, we are going to fight against those, even if the mainstream media accuses us of racism when we do that."

"Our concern and our opposition to what these women are saying — and many other members of the Democratic Party in the House of Representatives — has to do with the fact that they are advocating policies that will destroy this nation and we will fight against it," Cheney explained.

"And I think the news media — you included — ought to cover the substance and I think it is outrageous for you to say the president doesn't talk about substance," she said.



The constant barrage of claims that Trump is racist/nationalist/whatever has blunted the strategy. POTUS is pretty much insulated by this for the rest of the campaign. The crowd in NC ate it up and there is a reason why. Context matters and those folks realize that. They're also tired of the aforementioned strategy. Trump fights back and that is what they've been waiting for. It is why he is POTUS.

[bundabergdevil]

David Axelrod (of Obama campaign fame) provided some analysis of Trump's strategy that parallels what several of us were discussing before the cool-off period. I think this should be fair game and it's the best synthesis I've seen of what Trump is trying to achieve politically and where the pitfalls might be.

Article link. Here's a selection of the key, strategy-focused quotes from Axelrod with some bolded areas that are my highlights. If I'm a Democratic strategist, I am paying ultra-close position to focus groups and any polls in suburban area swing states on this fiasco...


"He thinks that he is going to influence these suburban voters by persuading them that the Democratic party is too far left. But in going as far as he's gone and he will go he may persuade them that we can't take four more years of this," Axelrod said.

"The thing is, he is repeating the pattern of his political, brief political career which is he throws these incendiary things out to divide in a way that he thinks will be useful to him politically," he said.

"He wants to elevate these four young members of Congress to make them the emblem of the Democratic party and he wants to be so outrageous about it that he forces all Democrats to embrace them, to support the argument that they are the iconic figures in the party and in the bargain, he riles up his base with nativist language," Axelrod said to host Anderson Cooper.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Please consult Webster for the definitions. It’s a rather fine line between nationalism and patriotism. Neither are close to racism.

I just did, they’re synonyms!

Yes, but we're speaking of connotations. Sort of like Bernie is a socialist.

Words mean more than definitions, obviously.

[sagegrouse]

D polls out today for Iowa, New Hamster, South Carolina, California, and Texas. Biden holds relatively slim leads in all but S.C. where he is +22.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/

..

Well, at this point all are more beauty contests and indications of national support. Although the race is a very fluid situation, I find the Biden leads impressive -- close only in CA. All are CBS -YouGov polls:

• Iowa Democratic Caucus Biden 24, Warren 17, Sanders 19, Harris 16, Buttigieg 7
• New Hampshire Democratic Primary Biden 27, Warren 18, Sanders 20, Harris 12, Buttigieg 7
• South Carolina Democratic Primary Biden 39, Sanders 17, Warren 12, Harris 12, Buttigieg 5
• California Democratic Primary Biden 24, Harris 23, Warren 19, Sanders 16, Buttigieg 6
• Texas Democratic Primary Biden 27, O'Rourke 17, Warren 16, Sanders 12, Harris 12

[Jeffrey]

Yes, but we're speaking of connotations. Sort of like Bernie is a socialist.

Words mean more than definitions, obviously.

Bernie says he is a socialist. That’s his chosen label.

I say I am a nationalist (by Webster’s definition) and not a racist. I’m offended by those words being used interchangeably. Why am I being incorrectly labeled by others? Why am I not allowed to pick my own label?

[JNort]

D polls out today for Iowa, New Hamster, South Carolina, California, and Texas. Biden holds relatively slim leads in all but S.C. where he is +22.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/

The problem with that is that my 15 seconds of research indicates all D primaries allot delegates proportionately, unlike the electoral college. I say problem because it is likely to lead to a long messy primary season for the Ds (going against an R incumbent) that may very well not be settled until the convention that could lead to a lot of hurt feelings among D constituencies. Some may argue it will make the D candidate stronger. Curious if the board's view is different from mine.

During that 15 seconds I came across this interesting article titled "Did Democrats Just Set Themselves Up for a Fiasco?":

https://prospect.org/article/did-dem...mselves-fiasco

Only the Ds...

I honestly haven't met or heard of a single person who likes or wants Biden. Where are all these Biden supporters at? He seems to me to only get favor from the more elderly and corporations, not the average American dem.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Bernie says he is a socialist. That’s his chosen label.

I say I am a nationalist (by Webster’s definition) and not a racist. I’m offended by those words being used interchangeably. Why am I being incorrectly labeled by others? Why am I not allowed to pick my own label?

You don't get to choose what words mean. Sorry. Society has already figured this out for us.

[Jeffrey]

You don't get to choose what words mean. Sorry. Society has already figured this out for us.

Whose society?

My voice doesn’t matter?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

WOW!

My voice doesn’t matter!

Lordy. Not sure what's got your ire up this evening.

Go ahead, fight to change the meaning of words. Let me know how that works out for you. Or, just go along with the agreed upon meanings of society that we all use to communicate more clearly.

I'm bowing out of this dialogue because it doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

[Jeffrey]

I'm bowing out of this dialogue because it doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

I’m also bowing out. However, I found the dialogue revealing.

Thank you for your time and sharing your opinion!

[dudog84]

Well, at this point all are more beauty contests and indications of national support. Although the race is a very fluid situation, I find the Biden leads impressive -- close only in CA. All are CBS -YouGov polls:

Yes, and we've got a long way to go, but Biden averages about 28% through those 5. So say he gets to the convention and he's at 35%. What if the Sanders/Warren forces coalesce? That looks to be about 30-40%. Does Harris become king(queen)maker?

My point is that this is shaping up to be a mess with a lot of hurt feelings among constituencies. Not like the Ds aren't a herd of cats anyways. I quoted somebody upthread that the candidate has 3 chances to make as splash and show themselves to the country: the announcement (which will be far in the rear view mirror), the debates, and the convention. The convention should be a coronation/celebration of the nominee, and it's going to be a catfight. Lots of cat analogies I know, but it is Leo time.

I understand the perception problem of the superdelegates last time (I say perception because they did NOT hand the nomination to Clinton), but when they got rid of the superdelegates they should have at the same time gone to winner-take-all primaries. I think the superdelegates get to vote after the first ballot at the convention, which will make the backlash against them even greater. It's a mess.

What's ironic to me is that Sanders is the one responsible for this sea change, and he's not even a D! But then Trump was never really an R either.

If you think I'm being too hard on the Ds I can do a number on the Rs for you.

Well, I've tried to pull the discussion away from racism...Jason, does that get me a "Get Out of Jail Free" card?

[Wander]

Please consult Webster for the definitions. It’s a rather fine line between nationalism and patriotism. Neither are close to racism.

I just did, they’re synonyms!

I found this article by Merriam-Webster that talks about the difference between patriotism and nationalism. Just posting because you and others might find it interesting. I think it boils down to: "nationalism" often implies an exclusionary sentiment towards other nations and "patriotism" does not, and "nationalism" is usually a little more inherently political.

[Jeffrey]

I found this article by Merriam-Webster that talks about the difference between patriotism and nationalism. Just posting because you and others might find it interesting. I think it boils down to: "nationalism" often implies an exclusionary sentiment towards other nations and "patriotism" does not, and "nationalism" is usually a little more inherently political.

Thanks, I’ll give it a read tomorrow. My wife has informed me that I’ll be doing as she instructs until then.

Have a great evening!

[PackMan97]

Yes, and we've got a long way to go, but Biden averages about 28% through those 5. So say he gets to the convention and he's at 35%. What if the Sanders/Warren forces coalesce? That looks to be about 30-40%. Does Harris become king(queen)m
I understand the perception problem of the superdelegates last time (I say perception because they did NOT hand the nomination to Clinton), but when they got rid of the superdelegates they should have at the same time gone to winner-take-all primaries. I think the superdelegates get to vote after the first ballot at the convention, which will make the backlash against them even greater. It's a mess.

The blame for that perception goes to the media who would always include the pledged super delegates in their running tallies which would always show Hillary far out in front, even if the actual "won in a primary" delegate count was very event between the two. The super delegates made Clinton's win feel inevitable.

[dudog84]

The blame for that perception goes to the media who would always include the pledged super delegates in their running tallies which would always show Hillary far out in front, even if the actual "won in a primary" delegate count was very event between the two. The super delegates made Clinton's win feel inevitable.

Which it was.

[CameronBornAndBred]

My response is not towards CB&B, at all. He is one cool dude.

I’m not sure why these labels are now used interchangeably, I think they are very different words. I’m now pro-capitalism and patriotic. Does that mean I’m a nationalist? I’ve always hated racism.

Seems very inappropriate, of Americans, to use the labels interchangeable, given how extremely sensitive Americans now are about almost every other label.

I found this article by Merriam-Webster that talks about the difference between patriotism and nationalism. Just posting because you and others might find it interesting. I think it boils down to: "nationalism" often implies an exclusionary sentiment towards other nations and "patriotism" does not, and "nationalism" is usually a little more inherently political.

I simply designate between racism and nationalism because not all immigrants are not caucasion. The underlying tone against both, though, is the same. To borrow a classic (yet dated) example, I'm sure an Irish family in the late 1800s would agree with that after stepping off the boat.