2020 Presidential Election

[BlueTeuf]

"The trick to being a big league manager is to keep the 4 guys who hate you from getting to the 8 that are undecided."

...or something like that.

My personal experience supports the underlying premise that you're wasting effort to try and change certain people's minds.

[Bostondevil]

Allow me to explain...

It is easy to dismiss these folks as fools -- people who have been lied to and chose to believe the lies. It is easy to be disgusted with their anger. It is easy to fell bitter at how they have cavalierly dismissed the real threats of the pandemic and spread the disease to others. It is easy to feel rage at their support of racists and neo-Nazis. I am not saying all Trump supporters fall into those buckets -- not at all!! -- but a fair share do and it is easy to think we should leave those people behind as we move forward as a society.

But I don't think that is the most healthy way for us to move forward. I think it is important to understand where these people are coming from and what they believe. I may be wrong, but I think that only when we understand their point of view will we be able to help them see reality. I know it won't work on many of them -- many will never believe facts and science -- but I think some can be saved and I think it is worth making the effort to save them.

I would rather try to understand them than dismiss them... maybe that is wrong given how far gone many of them seem to be, but that's who I am.

Allow me to explain . . .

I have read countless articles about these people. Countless. I have read about them over and over and over again in all sorts of media outlets. I already understand them. Already. Do I dismiss them as fools? No, I do not.

I'll give you a story that I read about in one article that a friend had posted to FB. A long married couple had announced to their family that they were choosing not to live in fear of the pandemic and wanted to get together with their extended family for Thanksgiving. The article described how they were the kind of couple who never liked being apart. As they lay dying in the hospital of covid, the staff moved them into the same room so they could die together, holding hands, within a couple of hours of each other. When they chose not to live in fear, what they actually chose was not to live. They believed the lies about covid and they died for it. But they also got their extended family together for Thanksgiving because of their delusions. How many more people died because of the spread they helped engineer we will never know.

The assault on our Capitol lead to 5 immediate deaths and one by suicide a few days later. That's the known death count. I guarantee the assault on the Capitol was a super spreader event. The number of lives we will lose to covid cases spread that day will remain unknown. The assault on our Capitol was engineered by lies. Some of the people who participated were just along for the ride, caught up in the excitement of the moment, "regular" people who have been led to believe they are forgotten and marginalized. They still participated in trying to overthrow our government.

So.

Again, by no means, do I dismiss them, not in the slightest. I take them very, very seriously. But, what those of us who keep arguing that we need to see it from their point of view do not understand, the point that really needs to come across - these people are not fools, they are murderers.

[ryetales]

NO!! Continuing to cover stories like this gives legitimacy to their delusions. I am a white hot ball of rage because of the number of Americans that are dying everyday. These people are angry because they choose to believe lies. They deserve no attention. They deserve no coddling. We are facing death and suffering in the extreme because of all the coddling and attention. No more. They are wrong in their beliefs and they do not deserve to have any future attention paid to their grievances whatsoever. I am angry in the extreme because I believe the lives of my fellow Americans are more important than my personal feelings about a whole host of issues. These people do not. They believe their grievances are more important than the lives of their fellow citizens. We must marginalize that attitude. I would bet any amount of pie that these people spend no time thinking about the truly marginalized in our society. This attitude and these people are mainstream even if the media likes to pretend that they aren't.

I will say it again, these people may be angry and they may feel marginalized, but that does not make it true. We do NOT need to understand them, we already do, we've heard from them and about them ad nauseum. They need the attention to be turned away from them because they are the ones who have a lot to learn. Where are the interviews with the meat-packing plant workers? Where are the stories of the bus drivers' families left to grieve when their breadwinner succumbs to covid? How about interviewing the cleaning staff at hospitals, the ones paid sub-contractors, that consequently don't get the employee email telling them they are eligible for vaccination? Where are the stories about all the immigrants who take on the work caring for our elderly population in the assisted living/long term care facilities? Where are the interviews with all the people that continue to do the essential work at greater risk to their own health while these people sit around complaining about not being heard?

Wow! Yes completely. Thanks BD.

[tommy]

Do you think Trump Republicans have this same conversation but in reverse about liberals? I don't know how much you can invest in understanding a group of people, marginalized as SOME of them may be, who think the other side of the aisle are godless, treasonous, amoral, worthless, unamerican, lying, cheating pedophiles who should be shot or hung. At some point, the strategy is active management, trying to adjust the policy levers in a way that might result in less marginalization and helps to lower the temperature of these people --- and not understanding and reaching out.

Totally agree with you and BostonDevil that the advancement (survival?) of our society demands that these people get less oxygen. Not more.

As far as strategy goes, the strategy for the Democrats (and, frankly, for traditional Republicans too I suppose) is to win elections. Win lots and lots of elections. You are not going to convince the Capitol-stormers and their supporters of the error of their ways. You just have to win elections and impose your (policy) will on them at the local, state, and national levels, from all three branches of government. Over and over and over again.

[JasonEvans]

We have made our points and I believe there is value in both points of view. No reason to discuss it further. I am certainly not making anyone listen to that edition of The Daily. I merely wanted folks to be aware because it caused me to think a good bit as I was listening to it (it also caused me to beat my head against the wall in frustration).

'Nuf said, IMO.

[Bostondevil]

We have made our points and I believe there is value in both points of view. No reason to discuss it further. I am certainly not making anyone listen to that edition of The Daily. I merely wanted folks to be aware because it caused me to think a good bit as I was listening to it (it also caused me to beat my head against the wall in frustration).

'Nuf said, IMO.

Ok. Truce.

[dudog84]

Let's talk polling! <ducks> Scott Rasmussen speaks:

President Donald Trump's approval rating rose in the final hours of his term in office

Approval over 50%!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...AHz?li=BBnb7Kz

[YmoBeThere]

It's a pickle.

There were a bunch of pardons coming out there for awhile but they seem to have stopped over the last week. I wonder if there are more coming over the weekend.

I would guess some will occur on Wednesday morning so as to attract attention away from other events.

I won't be surprised one bit if Trump doesn't release his expected pardon list until between 11am and noon tomorrow, in his one last steal of attention.

Hmmmmm...

[YmoBeThere]

As far as strategy goes, the strategy for the Democrats (and, frankly, for traditional Republicans too I suppose) is to win elections. Win lots and lots of elections. You are not going to convince the Capitol-stormers and their supporters of the error of their ways. You just have to win elections and impose your (policy) will on them at the local, state, and national levels, from all three branches of government. Over and over and over again.

They'll still win enough local elections to keep the feelings alive. At least for a while.

[MarkD83]

Let's talk polling! <ducks> Scott Rasmussen speaks:



Approval over 50%!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...AHz?li=BBnb7Kz

"The Rasmussen Reports daily tracking poll was conducted via telephone survey and online from a pool of 1,500 likely voters (who attended the riot on January 6)". The () are my addition that they left off.

[MChambers]

Anybody got their pardon yet? I sent in my check and a SASE, but haven’t received anything yet. Of course, the Post Office has been pretty slow lately.

[YmoBeThere]

Anybody got their pardon yet? I sent in my check and a SASE, but haven’t received anything yet. Of course, the Post Office has been pretty slow lately.

I'm hearing there will be a mysterious late night dump of pardons.

[Furniture]

Lots of emotions today. I have said this before on here but 4 years ago when it was becoming clear that Trump was going to win I’ll never forget my son texting the following in our family chat “I’m scared”. It’s been a long four years.
I found Biden’s speech in Delaware and the event at the Lincoln memorial very emotional and inspirational. Tonight I am filled with hope for the future of this country.

If you like eighties electronic new wave music you might like this one. It feels appropriate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePnXYklBBh8

[jimsumner]

"The trick to being a big league manager is to keep the 4 guys who hate you from getting to the 8 that are undecided."

...or something like that.

My personal experience supports the underlying premise that you're wasting effort to try and change certain people's minds.

A third of the players like you, a third hate you, a third haven't made up their minds. The key is to keep the third who hate you away from the third who haven't made up their minds.

[Tripping William]

A third of the players like you, a third hate you, a third haven't made up their minds. The key is to keep the third who hate you away from the third who haven't made up their minds.

Had Yogi Berra said it, it would have been half, half, and half.

[bundabergdevil]

As we wind to a close, the NYT wants you to have one last stroll down memory lane with a complete list of Trump's twitter insults from 2015 to 2021.

It is an exhaustive and exhausting reminder of the sheer volume of incivility the most powerful person on the planet directed at any little person, issue or place that flicked his little ego bean.

[VA_BDevil]

Saturday I read this very interesting article that Lord Ash posted several pages back - https://medium.com/curiouserinstitut...72997895386463 - and coincidentally watched The Social Dilemma documentary later that day.

Those two go a long way in explaining how these fact-free online environments came about and how a segment of the population has been radicalized. I highly recommend both for getting a better understanding of the problem. Now we need some smart people to figure out some solutions.

[cspan37421]

I worked with a guy whose favorite rhetorical device was, "I would agree with you, if you were right."

If the lies fed to people by talk radio and social media were actually true, then yeah, I too would feel I was losing my country and would seriously think about what all I could do / join in on to stop it. The trouble is, none of it was true! So yeah, I'd agree with them if they were right. They're not, and until we can agree on a common set of facts - however we may disagree about their interpretation - I don't see a good way out. There are glimmers of hope. Some consequences for slander, libel, etc. - Dominion Voting System is taking names and maybe starting to put an end to consequence-free lying. We need more of that.

Can't recommend The Social Dilemma highly enough. It's not to say it's perfect - in fact, certain parts are pretty hokey. But it's effective and most of all, important.

I'm starting to think that our understanding of human psychology has outrun our ability to control those who would manipulate it to our individual and collective detriment. Actually I've thought that for several years - it's just increasingly hard to deny it.

[Bostondevil]

In anticipation of this thread closing, I am fairly sure I posted here way more often after the election than before it. The horse race didn't interest me as much as the aftermath. It has been a long strange trip since November. I hope things go peacefully tomorrow. And I hope this is my last post in this thread.

I want to thank everyone who has been here, posting the latest news, and keeping it civil. Emotions have been high, but I think we've done a good job, even with the occasional shut down. You all got me through it, hope I helped you get through it too. The only way out is through.

For those of you who appreciate the gag that I will be the one to open the 2024 thread - see you in 3 years.

[sagegrouse]

In anticipation of this thread closing, I am fairly sure I posted here way more often after the election than before it. The horse race didn't interest me as much as the aftermath. It has been a long strange trip since November. I hope things go peacefully tomorrow. And I hope this is my last post in this thread.

I want to thank everyone who has been here, posting the latest news, and keeping it civil. Emotions have been high, but I think we've done a good job, even with the occasional shut down. You all got me through it, hope I helped you get through it too. The only way out is through.

For those of you who appreciate the gag that I will be the one to open the 2024 thread - see you in 3 years.

Hah! I have had 640 posts in this thread. Surely some of them made sense/