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  1. #21621
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Good article in the New Yorker on presidential record keeping in history...DJT made it a habit a LONG time ago to not use email or have notes retained from his meetings. Highly limited paper trails.

  2. #21622
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    Good article in the New Yorker on presidential record keeping in history...DJT made it a habit a LONG time ago to not use email or have notes retained from his meetings. Highly limited paper trails.
    Yup. And the incoming administration, IIRC, didn’t even take the ethics training on what was required for presidential record keeping or make many normally calendars and meeting logs public.

    Biden will have his work cut out for him getting a handle on things.
       

  3. #21623
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by bundabergdevil View Post
    Yup. And the incoming administration, IIRC, didn’t even take the ethics training on what was required for presidential record keeping or make many normally calendars and meeting logs public.

    Biden will have his work cut out for him getting a handle on things.
    And on the other hand, bank and tax documents DO require signatures and paper trails, for those of us who are keeping score at home.

  4. #21624
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by bundabergdevil View Post
    Yup. And the incoming administration, IIRC, didn’t even take the ethics training on what was required for presidential record keeping or make many normally calendars and meeting logs public.

    Biden will have his work cut out for him getting a handle on things.
    Good point. I think Biden's primary focus needs to be dealing with COVID, the economy, and normalizing international relations, as there is a major urgency around these areas. But at some point, he needs to try to codify many of the norms of presidential behavior that were always taken for granted but were ignored/violated for the last four years. And part of this involves creating enforcement mechanisms that are managed by people who were not appointed by the president, but also can't be used to nitpick the president for political differences. One would think this would be easy to do, but I have a feeling it will not be and he will face resistance.

  5. #21625
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    Good point. I think Biden's primary focus needs to be dealing with COVID, the economy, and normalizing international relations, as there is a major urgency around these areas. But at some point, he needs to try to codify many of the norms of presidential behavior that were always taken for granted but were ignored/violated for the last four years. And part of this involves creating enforcement mechanisms that are managed by people who were not appointed by the president, but also can't be used to nitpick the president for political differences. One would think this would be easy to do, but I have a feeling it will not be and he will face resistance.
    Yep subpoenas and warrants will raise a huge fuss and might not be worth it.
       

  6. #21626
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by wilson View Post
    I definitely agree with this. I think a lot of Trump's recent chopping block activities has been of the "send in the shredders" variety.
    Fortunately, it's a lot harder to destroy documents in the electronic age. There's always a backup somewhere.

  7. #21627
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...d-trump-again/

    What's funny is that the last election pollsters overestimated Clinton support because pollsters didn't account for education level. This time they did account for that and properly captured increased Biden support (compared to Clinton). They couldn't capture Trump's increasing support from 2016 despite "fixes" to weighting problems from 2016. This isn't evidence of "shy voters". Trump mobilized non-voters. People who NEVER vote. Those who never vote will never answer a questionnaire or poll. They are completely civically disengaged. They just support Trump. This would explain why 2018 polling was so much better and Democrats did so much better. This is actually why I think he should run again in 2024. I think he is a one off.
       

  8. #21628
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...d-trump-again/

    What's funny is that the last election pollsters overestimated Clinton support because pollsters didn't account for education level. This time they did account for that and properly captured increased Biden support (compared to Clinton). They couldn't capture Trump's increasing support from 2016 despite "fixes" to weighting problems from 2016. This isn't evidence of "shy voters". Trump mobilized non-voters. People who NEVER vote. Those who never vote will never answer a questionnaire or poll. They are completely civically disengaged. They just support Trump. This would explain why 2018 polling was so much better and Democrats did so much better. This is actually why I think he should run again in 2024. I think he is a one off.
    That doesn’t bode well for a conventional Republican in 2024.
       

  9. #21629
    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...d-trump-again/

    What's funny is that the last election pollsters overestimated Clinton support because pollsters didn't account for education level. This time they did account for that and properly captured increased Biden support (compared to Clinton). They couldn't capture Trump's increasing support from 2016 despite "fixes" to weighting problems from 2016. This isn't evidence of "shy voters". Trump mobilized non-voters. People who NEVER vote. Those who never vote will never answer a questionnaire or poll. They are completely civically disengaged. They just support Trump. This would explain why 2018 polling was so much better and Democrats did so much better. This is actually why I think he should run again in 2024. I think he is a one off.
    The saddest part of that is that 20% of Americans have NOBODY in the world that they consider themselves close to. (Irony: if we believe the polls.) That is again, a very sad thing...We are social creatures and isolation has real impacts.
       

  10. #21630
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by niveklaen View Post
    I think concerns about shredding are overblown. 99.9% of federal employees are civil servants, not political appointees. None of us civil servants are intentionally violating the regulations about preserving records. An appointee might delete his inbox, but everyone who was CCd on the emails will still have it and the attachments in their inbox - any given document is also likely to be duplicated on the agency sharepoint site, the building's mainframe/shared drive, and the desktop computers of whoever worked on it or read it - effectively destroying information in an organization with this much chaotic redundancy would be well nigh impossible.
    This.

    Almost no substantive policies or actions can occur without engaging the larger organization of any agency. These actions generate records, which are routinely stored; moreover, individuals in the career service always keep their records.

    There are some exceptions, I suppose, like "human intelligence" -- spies and counterspies. From what I have heard, these are incredibly protected -- even from the bosses of the agency.

    There are also other surveillance data that fall in the same category, in that specific detail could divulge how we collect it. Information from such sources is heavily massaged and summarized before being shared, to avoid revealing how it was collected.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  11. #21631
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    This.

    Almost no substantive policies or actions can occur without engaging the larger organization of any agency. These actions generate records, which are routinely stored; moreover, individuals in the career service always keep their records.
    I dunno. Hundreds of people and dozens of agencies across several states managed to steal the election in a brilliant coordinated effort without leaving a paper trail whatsoever.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  12. #21632
    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    Trump mobilized non-voters. People who NEVER vote. Those who never vote will never answer a questionnaire or poll. They are completely civically disengaged. They just support Trump. This would explain why 2018 polling was so much better and Democrats did so much better. This is actually why I think he should run again in 2024. I think he is a one off.
    Just seeking clarification here — Does “one off” here mean “unique candidate,” so he should run in ‘24 because NEVER voters will again come out to support him and perhaps push him to victory? Or does “one off” mean “one time only,” his one time was 2016, so he should run again in ‘24 because he will lose?

  13. #21633
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Dur'm
    Quote Originally Posted by wavedukefan70s View Post
    I do not believe one ioda that anyone running for president is doing it for the love of our country or to make it great.
    They are running for the power position
    And all the riches it entails.
    I have a very hard time believing we are anymore than a source of income for our elected officials .tax us all spend it all on projects that happen to employe thier friends and supporters .at one time yes i believe what you have said was true. I do not believe it to be true for atleast the last two decades or more.
    This attitude is how someone like Trump gets elected in the first place. Love of country is not merely a desirable characteristic in a President, it is an essential one. The electorate needs to enforce it. This is precisely why a candidate's character matters. If we elect people who are purely about power and control, we get a king rather than a president, which is how we get where we are now.

    I'm not naïve. I am well aware that power, control, fame, and riches all play a major role in determining who seeks the Presidency. But if the electorate itself only cares about power, then democracy itself is doomed. Democracy is a fragile experiment, and it will only survive if the electorate believes in it and actively enforces its principles.

    I have no idea who you voted for, wdf70s, and I'm not trying to call you out. I'm just saying that if the electorate can't turn back to civic responsibility, then Trump is just the tip of the iceberg and the country, like the Titanic, will come to a sorry end when we can't change course.

  14. #21634
    Quote Originally Posted by bundabergdevil View Post
    That doesn’t bode well for a conventional Republican in 2024.
    Remind me. What are those again?
       

  15. #21635
    Quote Originally Posted by gumbomoop View Post
    Just seeking clarification here — Does “one off” here mean “unique candidate,” so he should run in ‘24 because NEVER voters will again come out to support him and perhaps push him to victory? Or does “one off” mean “one time only,” his one time was 2016, so he should run again in ‘24 because he will lose?
    Good question. I think he can win in 2024. I think he is impossible to replicate.
       

  16. #21636
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    This attitude is how someone like Trump gets elected in the first place. Love of country is not merely a desirable characteristic in a President, it is an essential one. The electorate needs to enforce it. This is precisely why a candidate's character matters. If we elect people who are purely about power and control, we get a king rather than a president, which is how we get where we are now.

    I'm not naïve. I am well aware that power, control, fame, and riches all play a major role in determining who seeks the Presidency. But if the electorate itself only cares about power, then democracy itself is doomed. Democracy is a fragile experiment, and it will only survive if the electorate believes in it and actively enforces its principles.

    I have no idea who you voted for, wdf70s, and I'm not trying to call you out. I'm just saying that if the electorate can't turn back to civic responsibility, then Trump is just the tip of the iceberg and the country, like the Titanic, will come to a sorry end when we can't change course.
    Must spread comments...

    Very well put. Unfortunately, I think a large number of people don't care, and/or they have a very definition of "love of country."

  17. #21637
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Summerville ,S.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    This attitude is how someone like Trump gets elected in the first place. Love of country is not merely a desirable characteristic in a President, it is an essential one. The electorate needs to enforce it. This is precisely why a candidate's character matters. If we elect people who are purely about power and control, we get a king rather than a president, which is how we get where we are now.

    I'm not naïve. I am well aware that power, control, fame, and riches all play a major role in determining who seeks the Presidency. But if the electorate itself only cares about power, then democracy itself is doomed. Democracy is a fragile experiment, and it will only survive if the electorate believes in it and actively enforces its principles.

    I have no idea who you voted for, wdf70s, and I'm not trying to call you out. I'm just saying that if the electorate can't turn back to civic responsibility, then Trump is just the tip of the iceberg and the country, like the Titanic, will come to a sorry end when we can't change course.
    Thats exactly where i think we are close too. Everyone wants to be the king.
    It may be the tip or very near.
    I believe we are as vulnerable as we have ever been.
    I would love to see a actual love for country in our elected officials.
    I believe we are headed down a dangerous path.i only hope we can turn it around.

    The two parties have to find a middle ground .to work together .both have some good ideas and some bad ideas.
    Hopefully it will right itself.
       

  18. #21638
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    I think he is impossible to replicate.
    For all those that are saying that Cruz and Graham (and anyone else) is going to tap into Trump's base and ride them to the White House...THIS.

    Trump is completely unique, at least during the spans of a few generations. Until he came along, I never understood how Hitler was able to get Germany under his wing. Nobody else will be able to get challengers to cower in fear like Trump did. (I'm NOT saying that Trump is Hitler, merely pointing out the talent that both had for swaying the masses in their favor.)
    Had our country not had the democracy that we do, I think it would have been very easy for Trump to stay around for a very long time. He very nearly did it with it in place. (Although some could very strongly argue that it is less in place than it was 4 years ago.)

    At some point someone may come close to doing what Trump did to get into his position of power, but it won't be in my lifetime.

    Side note, I feel much better about our country for having shown that the majority of voters actually does have the power that we believe them to have.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  19. #21639
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    The People's Republic of Travis County
    Quote Originally Posted by wavedukefan70s View Post
    Its all good.some times its hard to read how people intend things in type.
    Oh the arguments my wife and i get into
    Over txt .lol
    Pfft, your "we voters are meaningless" and "*all* politicians are entirely in it just for themselves" remain vile and reprehensible statements, even if you are merely describing rather than approving of the specifics of one (outgoing President) politician's actions.

  20. #21640
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post

    Side note, I feel much better about our country for having shown that the majority of voters actually does have the power that we believe them to have.
    And that the institutions of our democracy -- designed to thwart the re-establishment of a monarchy -- bent but did not break. At the end of the day, the courts and (enough) honest citizens of both parties did their duty.

    Having said that -- I am staggered at how supine the Senate Republicans were time after time. Many are still so. That is very discouraging.

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