2020 Presidential Election

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Agree with Chard. Trump and Company would drive Bernie day and night as a socialist.
Bernie "DEMOCRATIC Socialist!"
Trump and Company "He admits he's a Socialist, see!?"

Again, I'm not saying it isn't true.

I just wish people cared about what words actually mean.

[budwom]

Again, I'm not saying it isn't true.

I just wish people cared about what words actually mean.

Yeah, without getting to far into the weeds on this, surveys show that while the geezers in my age group still find Socialist to be a dirty word (evoking thoughts of the Soviet Union, totalitarianism, confiscation of property) younger generations are
clearly viewing it in a far different light. For example, one poll found 61% of people aged 18-24 had a positive view of Socialism...things are changing...to what extent, I really can't say.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Yeah, without getting to far into the weeds on this, surveys show that while the geezers in my age group still find Socialist to be a dirty word (evoking thoughts of the Soviet Union, totalitarianism, confiscation of property) younger generations are
clearly viewing it in a far different light. For example, one poll found 61% of people aged 18-24 had a positive view of Socialism...things are changing...to what extent, I really can't say.

The problem (for now) is that the younger generations are not voters. As I mentioned in posts above, that is changing, but it still largely holds true. While the youth are not a block of voters to discount, they are also not going to carry anyone to victory.

[bundabergdevil]

And the differences are? Regardless of the mental gymnastics one may take to find those it won't matter. If Sanders is the nominee kiss any chance of a Democrat win goodbye. Dress up the term with whatever you like. Socialist anything won't go over well.

Are you asking me to explain to you the difference between the two political frameworks? They are different and there are no mental gymnastics or dressing up involved. Plenty of good reading on the various governing frameworks man has developed if you’re interested in educating yourself.

Bernie is a self-described Democratic Socialist so it’s not like he’s distancing himself from the term. He’s making a bet his approach will appeal to enough people; his adversaries are making plans to cudgel ANY Democrat with the socialist label. It’s been discussed in this thread before but there is plenty of evidence that the “socialist” dog doesn’t hunt like it used to, particularly with the under 40 crowd. But there is also plenty of evidence that not many people actually know what is implied by different political or economic frameworks so who the hell knows. We’re all just throwing spaghetti against the wall...

[bundabergdevil]

The problem (for now) is that the younger generations are not voters. As I mentioned in posts above, that is changing, but it still largely holds true. While the youth are not a block of voters to discount, they are also not going to carry anyone to victory.

The youth voters are expected to equal the geezer voters for the first time in this election. I’d posted Pew research on 2020 being a tipping point election in a number of areas a while back. I’ll see if I can find it again.

Edited to add link: https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/essay/an-early-look-at-the-2020-electorate/

Boomer voter share long on decline expected to roughly equal Millennial voter share in 2020 for first time.

[dudog84]

The youth voters are expected to equal the geezer voters for the first time in this election. I’d posted Pew research on 2020 being a tipping point election in a number of areas a while back. I’ll see if I can find it again.

Edited to add link: https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/essa...20-electorate/

Boomer voter share long on decline expected to roughly equal Millennial voter share in 2020 for first time.

You really need to get off my lawn.

[mkirsh]

The youth voters are expected to equal the geezer voters for the first time in this election. I’d posted Pew research on 2020 being a tipping point election in a number of areas a while back. I’ll see if I can find it again.

Edited to add link: https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/essa...20-electorate/

Boomer voter share long on decline expected to roughly equal Millennial voter share in 2020 for first time.

Interesting article but it is based on eligible voters, and not adjusted for expected turnout

[SouthernDukie]

The youth voters are expected to equal the geezer voters for the first time in this election. I’d posted Pew research on 2020 being a tipping point election in a number of areas a while back. I’ll see if I can find it again.

Edited to add link: https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/essa...20-electorate/

Boomer voter share long on decline expected to roughly equal Millennial voter share in 2020 for first time.

Eventually the scales have to tip in terms of those demographics. That's just a fact. People aren't going to live forever. However, I know a lot of 80+ year old folk and almost all of them vote (absentee or mail in). The Silent generation is still an effective shield for the President and is all but guaranteed to vote overwhelmingly in his favor in 2020. So if the Dems are looking for a swing I still think they will need a pretty substantial number of Millennials getting engaged and voting to tip the scales. Boomers are one thing in terms of Socialism. Those 80 and older? I highly doubt the Silents will go for anything or anyone with "Socialist" attached to it. If Bernie wins the nomination, I believe this will be the great irony: the oldest guy running will have the most trouble getting votes from his own generation.

[bundabergdevil]

Interesting article but it is based on eligible voters, and not adjusted for expected turnout

Fair enough. Turnout percentages will be huge but for the first time those age demographics will at least start on roughly equal footing. I’ve seen plenty of polling and analysis suggesting record total turnout in 2020 and if the mid-terms are any indication we should expect higher than average turnout across virtually all demographics.

[OldPhiKap]

The difference between Democratic Socialism and Socialism only has to do with the form of government, not the economic model. At least as those terms are used in political science.

A socialist is a socialist. A Democratic socialist is only different from a Monarchial socialist or a Dictatorial socialist in the form of government she or he espouses. A Democratic socialist only differs from a Democratic capitalist in the economic model she or he espouses.

But to the extent Trump can blur the two lines with Bernie to assert that Democrats ARE socialists, well -- that's a two-fer for him up and down the ballot. IMHO.

[cato]

Again, I'm not saying it isn't true.

I just wish people cared about what words actually mean.

If wishes were fishes, dude.

[Chard]

But... Words and definitions do matter. Or, well, ought to.

I can't keep up anymore.

Again, I'm not saying it isn't true.

I just wish people cared about what words actually mean.

On this we can agree. However, some think the man himself can't even get it right.


Bernie Sanders says he is a Democratic Socialist, but he describes an American version of Social Democracy and not text-book Democratic Socialism.

Thus, by the “text-book” (in this case Wikipedia) definition, Bernie Sanders is a Social Democrat and not a Democratic Socialist. This is true despite Bernie’s usage of the term “Democratic Socialist”.

The confusion comes from Bernie’s use of Democratic Socialism as a synonym for Social Democracy.

I'll say it again: Mental gymnastics. A pig is a pig. A socialist is a socialist. Just because people would vote for it in one instance or have it forced upon them in another doesn't make it any less socialism. I think some of the nuances some are trying to use to separate the factions of socialism is equivalent to smoking Marlboro Reds and Marlboro Lights. The end result is the same.

Bernie is a self-described Democratic Socialist so it’s not like he’s distancing himself from the term. He’s making a bet his approach will appeal to enough people; his adversaries are making plans to cudgel ANY Democrat with the socialist label. It’s been discussed in this thread before but there is plenty of evidence that the “socialist” dog doesn’t hunt like it used to, particularly with the under 40 crowd. But there is also plenty of evidence that not many people actually know what is implied by different political or economic frameworks so who the hell knows. We’re all just throwing spaghetti against the wall...

I think we agree on that last point. There are too many people with too many ideas of what socialism is...or isn't.

Socialism has re-entered the public discourse over the past several years, in part due to the high profile candidacy of socialist Bernie Sanders in the 2016 Democratic presidential primary...

No doubt candidates who are affiliated with the Democratic Socialists of America or in other ways lay claim to a socialist approach to government will continue to define what the term means in ways that fit their personal viewpoints.


Yeah, words mean things but concepts of ideas and what they mean to an individual or a group can vary greatly. Put a palatable word like democratic in front of socialism doesn't change the concept. It is just dressing up Wilbur.

The difference between Democratic Socialism and Socialism only has to do with the form of government, not the economic model. At least as those terms are used in political science.

A socialist is a socialist. A Democratic socialist is only different from a Monarchial socialist or a Dictatorial socialist in the form of government she or he espouses. A Democratic socialist only differs from a Democratic capitalist in the economic model she or he espouses.

Well said.

As this has gone well off the rails onto the PPB track. Point is that no matter what Sanders calls himself, he can't get past his history of praise for socialism, vacations in Russia, essays on women's fantasies, millionaire hypocrisy etc., without it being brought up ad nauseam by the other side. No matter what youngins' think/don't know about socialism, it won't change the way many even in his own party feel about it when push comes to shove at the ballot box. The Democrat party knows this now and new it back in 2016.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

On this we can agree. However, some think the man himself can't even get it right.


Bernie Sanders says he is a Democratic Socialist, but he describes an American version of Social Democracy and not text-book Democratic Socialism.

Thus, by the “text-book” (in this case Wikipedia) definition, Bernie Sanders is a Social Democrat and not a Democratic Socialist. This is true despite Bernie’s usage of the term “Democratic Socialist”.

The confusion comes from Bernie’s use of Democratic Socialism as a synonym for Social Democracy.

I'll say it again: Mental gymnastics. A pig is a pig. A socialist is a socialist. Just because people would vote for it in one instance or have it forced upon them in another doesn't make it any less socialism. I think some of the nuances some are trying to use to separate the factions of socialism is equivalent to smoking Marlboro Reds and Marlboro Lights. The end result is the same.




I think we agree on that last point. There are too many people with too many ideas of what socialism is...or isn't.

Socialism has re-entered the public discourse over the past several years, in part due to the high profile candidacy of socialist Bernie Sanders in the 2016 Democratic presidential primary...

No doubt candidates who are affiliated with the Democratic Socialists of America or in other ways lay claim to a socialist approach to government will continue to define what the term means in ways that fit their personal viewpoints.


Yeah, words mean things but concepts of ideas and what they mean to an individual or a group can vary greatly. Put a palatable word like democratic in front of socialism doesn't change the concept. It is just dressing up Wilbur.



Well said.

As this has gone well off the rails onto the PPB track. Point is that no matter what Sanders calls himself, he can't get past his history of praise for socialism, vacations in Russia, essays on women's fantasies, millionaire hypocrisy etc., without it being brought up ad nauseam by the other side. No matter what youngins' think/don't know about socialism, it won't change the way many even in his own party feel about it when push comes to shove at the ballot box. The Democrat party knows this now and new it back in 2016.

Just to be clear, you're saying Bernie can't overcome his Russia ties?

[bundabergdevil]

I'll say it again: Mental gymnastics. A pig is a pig. A socialist is a socialist. Just because people would vote for it in one instance or have it forced upon them in another doesn't make it any less socialism. I think some of the nuances some are trying to use to separate the factions of socialism is equivalent to smoking Marlboro Reds and Marlboro Lights. The end result is the same.


Yeah, words mean things but concepts of ideas and what they mean to an individual or a group can vary greatly. Put a palatable word like democratic in front of socialism doesn't change the concept. It is just dressing up Wilbur.

Yes, there is a lot of confusion about the term and its implications. One that I've found to be a sticking point for folks with a special aversion to the term is an unwillingness to recognize that the U.S. and its states have already adopted a number of socialist or quasi-socialist policies, programs, and strategies. We already have social or state ownership of the means of production in a number of places. I think - and I've previously posted polling to support this - the older generation associates socialism with our 1950s - 1980s-era adversaries so its an evil term. The younger generation doesn't have these associations, they grew up with al qaeda and terrorism as the main evil in the world. Socialism is just a different way of governing to them, which is why I don't think the "socialism" dog will hunt quite the way it might have in, say, the 1980s.

And, arguably, even though they're not directly comparable, capitalism ain't exactly whistling dixie next to socialism. The post-Great Recession recovery was not equally shared and the growing income inequality divide weighs heavily on a lot of people. This survey is global and associated with WEF but there are lot of folks who see capitalism doing more harm than good. Adding to the confusion is that Trump essentially ran on an anti-capitalism, protectionist economic platform in 2016 --- he and Bernie both argue heavily in favor of the state intervening to blunt globalization forces.

[dudog84]

On this we can agree. However, some think the man himself can't even get it right.


Bernie Sanders says he is a Democratic Socialist, but he describes an American version of Social Democracy and not text-book Democratic Socialism.

Thus, by the “text-book” (in this case Wikipedia) definition, Bernie Sanders is a Social Democrat and not a Democratic Socialist. This is true despite Bernie’s usage of the term “Democratic Socialist”.

The confusion comes from Bernie’s use of Democratic Socialism as a synonym for Social Democracy.

I don't understand the problem. I've met a lot of social Democrats. They're a lot of fun. Tend to drink a lot of beer (and indulge in other substances).

[budwom]

Yes, there is a lot of confusion about the term and its implications. One that I've found to be a sticking point for folks with a special aversion to the term is an unwillingness to recognize that the U.S. and its states have already adopted a number of socialist or quasi-socialist policies, programs, and strategies. We already have social or state ownership of the means of production in a number of places. I think - and I've previously posted polling to support this - the older generation associates socialism with our 1950s - 1980s-era adversaries so its an evil term. The younger generation doesn't have these associations, they grew up with al qaeda and terrorism as the main evil in the world. Socialism is just a different way of governing to them, which is why I don't think the "socialism" dog will hunt quite the way it might have in, say, the 1980s.

And, arguably, even though they're not directly comparable, capitalism ain't exactly whistling dixie next to socialism. The post-Great Recession recovery was not equally shared and the growing income inequality divide weighs heavily on a lot of people. This survey is global and associated with WEF but there are lot of folks who see capitalism doing more harm than good. Adding to the confusion is that Trump essentially ran on an anti-capitalism, protectionist economic platform in 2016 --- he and Bernie both argue heavily in favor of the state intervening to blunt globalization forces.

yes, this (current policies) is a point I make to friends about this. For example, the way we routinely fund our public schools is socialist in nature...for example, I have no kids, yet my house is robustly taxed for schools just the same as my neighbor with five kids...(I'm not complaining, let me be clear). we all pay in for the presumed greater good...if we want to be free of socialism, charged each family a per kid fee for school. Ah, that's not going to fly, is it?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Yes, there is a lot of confusion about the term and its implications. One that I've found to be a sticking point for folks with a special aversion to the term is an unwillingness to recognize that the U.S. and its states have already adopted a number of socialist or quasi-socialist policies, programs, and strategies. We already have social or state ownership of the means of production in a number of places. I think - and I've previously posted polling to support this - the older generation associates socialism with our 1950s - 1980s-era adversaries so its an evil term. The younger generation doesn't have these associations, they grew up with al qaeda and terrorism as the main evil in the world. Socialism is just a different way of governing to them, which is why I don't think the "socialism" dog will hunt quite the way it might have in, say, the 1980s.

And, arguably, even though they're not directly comparable, capitalism ain't exactly whistling dixie next to socialism. The post-Great Recession recovery was not equally shared and the growing income inequality divide weighs heavily on a lot of people. This survey is global and associated with WEF but there are lot of folks who see capitalism doing more harm than good. Adding to the confusion is that Trump essentially ran on an anti-capitalism, protectionist economic platform in 2016 --- he and Bernie both argue heavily in favor of the state intervening to blunt globalization forces.

At the end of the day, it has much more to do with the connotations of the word "socialism" than it does about policies. I wouldn't be surprised if you asked people who were opposed to socialism how they feel about medicare, they are largely in favor.

You can question Bernie's decision to embrace the label, but I wish (again, wishing, I know) that people would vote based on policies rather than a one word label. I recognize the irony of this, given that most people (over 80% I'd wager) will vote for their party regardless of the nominee, and the veracity of Trump's 5th Avenue statement during his last campaign.

[Nick]

Me: This primary could use some more drama
Tulsi: I'm suing Hillary Clinton for $50 million for defamation

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Me: This primary could use some more drama
Tulsi: I'm suing Hillary Clinton for $50 million for defamation

Wow. No one self-implodes like Dems self-implode.

[bundabergdevil]

Me: This primary could use some more drama
Tulsi: I'm suing Hillary Clinton for $50 million for defamation

Nice post presentation, made me laugh.

$50M in personal and professional damages for HRC claiming Tulsi was Russia’s pick on a podcast. I’m wholly unfamiliar with how a sum like that might be generated. Obviously not current professional wages so, what, lost opportunities like rumored TV gigs? One of our resident lawyers will have to provide insight into where $50 M might have come from. Surely it has some basis and isn’t Tulsi putting her pinky to mouth and picking a number.