2020 Presidential Election

[budwom]

I suspect a lot of people have been educated on the monument issue...not many confederate monuments up this way (though I used to work in a St. Albans VT bank which had the northernmost action in the Civil War when some Southern lads come up here and robbed the bank and took off for Canada)...

As a history major, I kind of like looking at monuments, but had not known that many (emphasis) of the monuments in question were not erected right after the war, but rather decades later to support a white supremacist culture... I found that persuasive...

[Bluedog]

The monument stance and general "us vs them"/culture wars are losing propositions to Trump based on polls. However, the increase in murders/violence recently in cities, including children getting murdered on the streets in several cities this weekend, and stories written about how its related to less trust in police/unrest after George Floyd could actually be an area that wins Trump's some votes among suburban white voters who see police as important to establishing law and order, and view Democrats taking anti-police policy stances. Of course, this isn't new but there's been a marked increase in violence and having those sorts of stories be more at the forefront ironically could help Trump.

CNN, which is typically very anti-Trump/pro-protestors and writes stories as evidence to those narratives, has this piece:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/01/us/ho...ies/index.html
"Police blame the surge in gun violence on a combination of the early release of people from jail during the pandemic, the effects of a new state's bail reform law and other factors."


"More people not in jail," NYPD Chief of Department Terence Monahan told CNN. "Rikers Island (jail) in New York is empty. Between Covid, between bail reform, the protests caused animosity towards the police, which took us out of neighborhoods that needed us the most."
Earlier this month, the NYPD disbanded its anti-crime unit, roughly 600 plainclothes officers whose aggressive tactics in fighting violent crime were often met with controversy."

Not like I expect Trump suddenly to improve by 10 points in the polls, but I see this as an issue that he should focus on more than the things he currently is if he's actually trying to bring new people to his side. At least, it's a narrative that could get some play.

[JasonEvans]

Not like I expect Trump suddenly to improve by 10 points in the polls, but I see this as an issue that he should focus on more than the things he currently is if he's actually trying to bring new people to his side. At least, it's a narrative that could get some play.

I saw a Trump ad today that talked about Biden supporting "Defund the Police" and then talked about how rape, murder, and home invasions would soar without a strong police presence.

It was a clear effort to use fear as a way of winning votes. I would expect to see and hear a lot more of this kind of thing moving forward.

-Jason "no candidate who loses ever says, 'I sure am glad I didn't push harder.' Trump will throw everything he can at Biden" Evans

[dudog84]

I saw a Trump ad today that talked about Biden supporting "Defund the Police" and then talked about how rape, murder, and home invasions would soar without a strong police presence.

It was a clear effort to use fear as a way of winning votes. I would expect to see and hear a lot more of this kind of thing moving forward.

-Jason "no candidate who loses ever says, 'I sure am glad I didn't push harder.' Trump will throw everything he can at Biden" Evans

Haven't seen the ad, is it a Willie Horton thing?

[Steven43]

I saw a Trump ad today that talked about Biden supporting "Defund the Police" and then talked about how rape, murder, and home invasions would soar without a strong police presence.

It was a clear effort to use fear as a way of winning votes. I would expect to see and hear a lot more of this kind of thing moving forward.

-Jason "no candidate who loses ever says, 'I sure am glad I didn't push harder.' Trump will throw everything he can at Biden" Evans

I wish someone would please explain exactly what it would mean to “defund the police.” A high percentage of Americans have zero clue what that term actually means.

I have heard countless people exclaim that “defund the police” means to not have a police force at all. I am 100% certain that is not what it means, but honestly I don’t know what it actually does mean.

Biden needs to spell out very clearly what “defund the police” means so that there is no confusion. I don’t even know if he supports it, but either way he needs to make this issue a priority before Trump frames a false narrative around it and attaches it to Biden,

[JasonEvans]

Several folks have asked, so here is the ad I saw.



I do not want us to discuss our personal opinions on this ad. That would be inappropriate. What we can discuss is the campaign strategy behind this and whether we think it will be effective.

I wish someone would please explain exactly what it would mean to “defund the police.” A high percentage of Americans have zero clue what that term actually means.

I have heard countless people exclaim that “defund the police” means to not have a police force at all. I am 100% certain that is not what it means, but honestly I don’t know what it actually does mean.

Biden needs to spell out very clearly what “defund the police” means so that there is no confusion. I don’t even know if he supports it, but either way he needs to make this issue a priority before Trump frames a false narrative around it and attaches it to Biden,

Biden has said he does not support "Defund the police." He supports reforms and other stuff but not slashing police budgets in a huge way. There's a reason the Trump ad above merely says "Joe Biden's supporters want to defund the police." If the Trump campaign could get away with putting those words actually in Joe's mouth, they would be jumping for joy. But, the best they can do is pin it on some of his supporters.

I know... kinda weak sauce, but I think Trump has decided this needs to be a major conversation in the election.

As for what that phrase even means, I think different people see it in different ways. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the most mainstream meaning of "defund the police" is to take some monies budgeted for policing and shift them into different programs that involve counseling, community watch, revitalization, education and other stuff like that. The idea is to both create situations where police are not needed and also not have the police be the default phone call when something is going wrong in your community.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I wish someone would please explain exactly what it would mean to “defund the police.” A high percentage of Americans have zero clue what that term actually means.

I have heard countless people exclaim that “defund the police” means to not have a police force at all. I am 100% certain that is not what it means, but honestly I don’t know what it actually does mean.

Biden needs to spell out very clearly what “defund the police” means so that there is no confusion. I don’t even know if he supports it, but either way he needs to make this issue a priority before Trump frames a false narrative around it and attaches it to Biden,

It's a very poor word choice that allows detractor to imply that it means the eradication of police. Which it doesn't at all.

What "Defund the Police" means is to reroute a portion of those funds to other social programs to deal with underlying causes of violence, unrest, and crime. I'm sure others here can better describe the position, but my main takeaway is "what a horribly worded movement."

[SouthernDukie]

It's a very poor word choice that allows detractor to imply that it means the eradication of police. Which it doesn't at all.

What "Defund the Police" means is to reroute a portion of those funds to other social programs to deal with underlying causes of violence, unrest, and crime. I'm sure others here can better describe the position, but my main takeaway is "what a horribly worded movement."

Yes, it’s a losing slogan (note I said “slogan”, not the actual idea behind it) for sure. The majority of average, everyday Americans will recoil at any idea of removing police forces from their local areas. That’s why the Trump campaign is running hard against this one. They know the slogan is a gift.

[jv001]

Several folks have asked, so here is the ad I saw.



I do not want us to discuss our personal opinions on this ad. That would be inappropriate. What we can discuss is the campaign strategy behind this and whether we think it will be effective.



Biden has said he does not support "Defund the police." He supports reforms and other stuff but not slashing police budgets in a huge way. There's a reason the Trump ad above merely says "Joe Biden's supporters want to defund the police." If the Trump campaign could get away with putting those words actually in Joe's mouth, they would be jumping for joy. But, the best they can do is pin it on some of his supporters.

I know... kinda weak sauce, but I think Trump has decided this needs to be a major conversation in the election.

As for what that phrase even means, I think different people see it in different ways. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the most mainstream meaning of "defund the police" is to take some monies budgeted for policing and shift them into different programs that involve counseling, community watch, revitalization, education and other stuff like that. The idea is to both create situations where police are not needed and also not have the police be the default phone call when something is going wrong in your community.

I know what "defund the police" means and as MountainDevil mentioned, I too think it's a poor choice of words. As for taking money from the police budget and putting into counseling, community watch, revitalization, education, etc, it sounds good and wouldn't hurt but counseling for police officers would help more. However those things are not going to remove gang violence, drug dealers and sexual deviates. Those crimes cross color lines and not limited to one race. Police officers are needed to keep those criminals off the street. As for the ads, Trump seems satisfied with going after voters he already has in his pocket. He should be going after voters that are going to stay home and not vote because they don't like either choice and he might be able to get some of the voters that may be a weak lean to the left.

[Bluedog]

In addition to the above comments about "Defund the police" which I agree with, some believe a large percentage of police officers should be replaced with public safety counselors who have expertise with mental illness and the like. They'd be the default dispatch except in cases where violent crime has occurred. Of course, there are often situations in inner cities where violent crime occurs and nobody calls the police at all due to distrust of police, anti-snitching sentiments, and gangs preference to take matters into their own hands.

I think just like other movements, there's not a singular viewpoint to "Defund the police" and perspectives on it by those that they support the concept vary. There probably are a few that truly want to rid of police forces entirely, but I would imagine that's a very minority view.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Several folks have asked, so here is the ad I saw.



I do not want us to discuss our personal opinions on this ad. That would be inappropriate. What we can discuss is the campaign strategy behind this and whether we think it will be effective.



Biden has said he does not support "Defund the police." He supports reforms and other stuff but not slashing police budgets in a huge way. There's a reason the Trump ad above merely says "Joe Biden's supporters want to defund the police." If the Trump campaign could get away with putting those words actually in Joe's mouth, they would be jumping for joy. But, the best they can do is pin it on some of his supporters.

I know... kinda weak sauce, but I think Trump has decided this needs to be a major conversation in the election.

As for what that phrase even means, I think different people see it in different ways. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the most mainstream meaning of "defund the police" is to take some monies budgeted for policing and shift them into different programs that involve counseling, community watch, revitalization, education and other stuff like that. The idea is to both create situations where police are not needed and also not have the police be the default phone call when something is going wrong in your community.

I think that the bottom line with the Defund the Police discussion, as well as others that are going on, is controlling the narrative. I think that almost everyone agrees that whoever coined this phrase did a lousy job and most people do not believe in the implied meaning of it (eliminating the police). But the term is out there, there are people who do seem to push it, so Trump is capitalizing.

It seems like Trump is almost completely controlling the narrative and shifting the focus to areas that he thinks will work well for him. Biden is virtually silent - when he speaks, it is buried in the news cycle. At worst, Biden needs to do a better job of defending himself. At best, he needs to get on the offensive. A good first step would be taking a lesson from the Lincoln Project as their ads seem to be really impactful. But people need to see him saying these things - his PR staff need to do a better job.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I saw a Trump ad today that talked about Biden supporting "Defund the Police" and then talked about how rape, murder, and home invasions would soar without a strong police presence.

It was a clear effort to use fear as a way of winning votes. I would expect to see and hear a lot more of this kind of thing moving forward.

-Jason "no candidate who loses ever says, 'I sure am glad I didn't push harder.' Trump will throw everything he can at Biden" Evans

There is a lot of violence going on around the country right now and crime rates are rising.

Democrats are supporting defunding the police in many major cities.

Biden is tapped as leading the Democratic Party and this will be a major issue in his campaign.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I think that the bottom line with the Defund the Police discussion, as well as others that are going on, is controlling the narrative. I think that almost everyone agrees that whoever coined this phrase did a lousy job and most people do not believe in the implied meaning of it (eliminating the police). But the term is out there, there are people who do seem to push it, so Trump is capitalizing.

It seems like Trump is almost completely controlling the narrative and shifting the focus to areas that he thinks will work well for him. Biden is virtually silent - when he speaks, it is buried in the news cycle. At worst, Biden needs to do a better job of defending himself. At best, he needs to get on the offensive. A good first step would be taking a lesson from the Lincoln Project as their ads seem to be really impactful. But people need to see him saying these things - his PR staff need to do a better job.

Unfortunately, we live in a day and age where a three word slogan has FAR more impact than the message behind it. It's the Twitterization of our culture. Less is more.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

There is a lot of violence going on around the country right now and crime rates are rising.

Democrats are supporting defunding the police in many major cities.

Biden is tapped as leading the Democratic Party and this will be a major issue in his campaign.

"Democrats are supporting defunding the police in many major cities" is a really loaded, simplistic way of describing things. Unfortunately, I think this is at the level of detail that the average American chooses to absorb right now. You either have to go all in on that statement or not make it at all. I could do so but I really would hope the mods would explain this for me as it reads to me like straight off of Fox News - I am all for alternate opinions on this thread but they need to be more robust than this...

[Wheat/"/"/"]

"Democrats are supporting defunding the police in many major cities" is a really loaded, simplistic way of describing things. Unfortunately, I think this is at the level of detail that the average American chooses to absorb right now. You either have to go all in on that statement or not make it at all. I could do so but I really would hope the mods would explain this for me as it reads to me like straight off of Fox News - I am all for alternate opinions on this thread but they need to be more robust than this...

My statement is a simple truth.

I would be happy to engage in a civil, responsible and more detailed discussion of this point.

[jv001]

"Democrats are supporting defunding the police in many major cities" is a really loaded, simplistic way of describing things. Unfortunately, I think this is at the level of detail that the average American chooses to absorb right now. You either have to go all in on that statement or not make it at all. I could do so but I really would hope the mods would explain this for me as it reads to me like straight off of Fox News - I am all for alternate opinions on this thread but they need to be more robust than this...

I like and respect your posts but the "straight out of Fox news" comment is something I believe Jason has said is off limits(calling out networks). As for Wheat's comment about Democrats supporting defunding the police, I believe that comment would be inbounds if he had provided a link.

[dudog84]

It seems like Trump is almost completely controlling the narrative and shifting the focus to areas that he thinks will work well for him. Biden is virtually silent - when he speaks, it is buried in the news cycle.

When is the last you heard about Russian bounties on our soldiers? To date, the prez has still not condemned the actions. It works for Trump and his crew, and you're right that Biden and his crew better get their act together. He's been given a gift the last few months, but he cannot continue to sit (for the most part) in the bleachers.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

My statement is a simple truth.

I would be happy to engage in a civil, responsible and more detailed discussion of this point.

Yes, Simple is the operative word. As discussed in a number of well-written posts immediately above this one, "defund the police" is a very loaded term. So to say that "Democrats are supporting defunding the police" means more than what you might think it does - you can't just throw that out there. By definition, "defund the police" means spending $0.01 less on police than you did the previous year. But the current interpretation by many is to largely eliminate the police force of a city.

Are mayors of major cities (the majority of whom are Democrats) planning to take some money away from the police? Yes.
Are mayors of major cities looking for alternate forms of policing beyond traditional ones? Yes.
Are mayors of major cities facing huge budget deficits so they are making cuts across the board, so police would be getting hit no matter what? Yes.
Do mayors of major cities want to eliminate their police forces as some (on both sides) are implying when using the term "defund the police"? No.
Do most supporters of Biden support "defund the police" as Trump is using the term? No.
Is it smart of Trump to attach the negative use of the term to Biden since there are Biden supporters who do support that concept? Yes.
Would this country be a better place if Trump focused his efforts on uniting rather than dividing? You can make that choice in November.
Do you think it is actually the very small portion of the country who supports the extreme definition of "Defund the police" that is really dividing us, not Trump? There are plenty of people who agree with you.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

This is spiraling quickly

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I like and respect your posts but the "straight out of Fox news" comment is something I believe Jason has said is off limits(calling out networks). As for Wheat's comment about Democrats supporting defunding the police, I believe that comment would be inbounds if he had provided a link.

Fair enough - I stand by the rest of what I say, but I am OK with that being struck by the mods. I apologize if I overstepped my bounds, particularly when I am calling out someone else for irresponsible posting. Thank you for your post.