Game of Thrones 2019

[Wander]

or why absolutely nobody realized that the Night King might raise the dead in the crypts, or why everyone says Sansa+Tyrion are brilliant despite them never showing it, etc. etc.

The thing that bothered me here is they could have VERY EASILY addressed both of these issues with an extremely minor change. They could have had Sansa or Tyrion realize the dead crypt thing and had everyone prepare for it and had a little scene of them burning the dead or killing the zombies as they “woke up”. Would have given them something useful to do in the episode and played up their intelligence without any change to the episode otherwise.

[bjornolf]

The thing that bothered me here is they could have VERY EASILY addressed both of these issues with an extremely minor change. They could have had Sansa or Tyrion realize the dead crypt thing and had everyone prepare for it and had a little scene of them burning the dead or killing the zombies as they “woke up”. Would have given them something useful to do in the episode and played up their intelligence without any change to the episode otherwise.

Well, I guess unless Jon said “I saw the NK just raise his arms at Hardhomme and all the dead just popped right up” maybe they didn’t realize it was that easy. Jon isn’t completely stupid though. He should have thought of it. Or Bran. I’m sure he looked in on that at some point. I was surprised no one thought to grab a torch and start burning them though. However, I guess if they HAD done that in such an enclosed space, everyone might have died of smoke inhalation or ended up burning alive.

[fuse]

https://www.joe.co.uk/entertainment/...terfell-229662

If you don’t appreciate soccer, this link won’t be worth your time.

I found it pretty hilarious.

[fuse]

I re-watched last night.
I’m not sure there is any amount of convincing that could change my mind that Daenerys spun Jorah Mormont into that sword as a human shield.

Also, related to the link I posted above, Jon Snow actually tried to roar at a dragon as a combat tactic? How did I not fall off my sofa laughing the first time I saw that???

Lyanna Mormont forever remains one bad mamajama.

Someone also please explain why Sam wasn’t in the crypt.
He has been such a lovable character throughout.
While it served a purpose (I’ve never been in battle so who am I to criticize?) his abject cowardice really made me feel a lot of disgust and for the first time a lack of empathy.

Missandei is going to set the stage for an epic bout of infighting in the next episode.
It’s going to get ugly for Dany, Tyrion, Sansa and maybe as a by product, Jon Snow. Will Jaime get a turn to unify the “good guys”?

[bjornolf]

So you think she DID spin him into the sword, or you think she didn’t?

[mph]

https://www.joe.co.uk/entertainment/...terfell-229662

If you don’t appreciate soccer, this link won’t be worth your time.

I found it pretty hilarious.

This is great. Thanks for sharing. I love the breakdown of Lady Mormont:

Called up due to an injury crisis, the academy prospect appeared to be hopelessly out of her depth but did well to halt a midfield surge from zombie Wun Wun just when he looked like he might break through the Winterfell backline. Regardless, it was a poor decision from the manager to rush her into the starting lineup as she struggled to cope with the immense physicality of the league. Winterfell have now lost her for the rest of the season, and also forever. She is dead...

[dudog84]

Well, I guess unless Jon said “I saw the NK just raise his arms at Hardhomme and all the dead just popped right up” maybe they didn’t realize it was that easy. Jon isn’t completely stupid though. He should have thought of it. Or Bran. I’m sure he looked in on that at some point. I was surprised no one thought to grab a torch and start burning them though. However, I guess if they HAD done that in such an enclosed space, everyone might have died of smoke inhalation or ended up burning alive.

Yes, you must have proper ventilation if burning a wight inside. Kinda like not running the generator inside when a hurricane takes your power for a few days.

[bundabergdevil]

Also, related to the link I posted above, Jon Snow actually tried to roar at a dragon as a combat tactic? How did I not fall off my sofa laughing the first time

He was trying to get to the Godswood and Bran. The dragon was in between them and he couldn’t get around it. I took it as a scream of frustration/exhaustion/i know I’m about to lose and die. Considering the things I’ve screamed at in frustration that are decidedly less imposing than dead dragons (college kids that stole my parking spot at the bagel shop, broke lawnmower, bees), I guess his response didn’t bother me too much.

[fuse]

So you think she DID spin him into the sword, or you think she didn’t?

Definitely did.

[Lord Ash]

Hmmm... a lot of thoughts, now that I finally caught up, a day late.

It was a difficult episode to watch.

Firstly, because of the actual filming. It was dark, a lot of the bodies looked the same, the dragons REALLY looked the same, there was a lot of swirling snow, and there was a lot of "Character A magically appears next to Character B, even though they were nowhere near each other."

Secondly, for me, because it was just terribly brutal. Sure, maybe not for our named characters, but christ, the sheer scale of death was a lot to take. Every single dothraki, it looks like almost all of the unsullied, we didn't see a ton of the wildlings but I think we have to assume them, too, and then a lot of the crypt... the North is basically wiped out, and all of Dany's armies that she built up over the last seven seasons, gone too. And horribly, too... what a terrible death for so many people. Listening to the slaughter in the crypt made me a bit sick.

Not a fan of the tactics. I guess it makes sense that the Dothraki would just charge... that's clearly their way, and they clearly will be most effective doing that, rather than fighting on foot behind walls... but still, just felt like suicide. And the unsullied... throughout the show, they never really fought in the shield wall/phalanx formation that spears and shields would imply. I expected them to make a big I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. wall of shields and have the dead smash into them for a good long while... instead, the dead just flowed right over them like water. Maybe the idea is that the humans didn't REALLY get how deadly the dead were?

I was shocked that more named people didn't die, but in the end I am glad. I was not ready to say goodbye to a lot of these characters. But yeah, it was WAY too convenient... they were all surrounded by dead bodies and wights, but all managed to survive, without any regular people around them surviving? WAY too much plot armor.

Interesting that Arya turned out to be the one the prophecy was talking about. Didn't expect that. But so then why did Jon come back to life? What was his mission? Was it basically the gathering of the people to defend the North?

Arya's dropped-knife move; she used it on Brianne when they met and fought.

The cleanup would be INSANE. Like... it would take months and months. I guess you'd just have the dragons burn the bodies? What a horrible job.

Will winter now end? Like... will the weather turn good now? I'd be down for that, I think.

I am actually thrilled that the Night King storyline appears to be done. The dead and the Night King were never the shows strong point; the strong point has always been the characters and the interactions. The "next week on" made me very happy... all faces we know, all well-lit, and looking like the GoT we know so well. I have high hopes for the last three episodes, especially since we sort of knew what was coming to this point (big battle, good guys win.)

VERY nervous about Bronn, now. I would assume he won't kill either of the brothers... although he has always been about getting what's his, and the actor apparently said some stuff that made people VERY anxious. Back in Season 1 Tyrion told Bronn he would always double whatever anyone offered to kill him... but what does Tyrion have to offer?

I am also starting to have some hope, that in the end some of the characters we love will survive.

[El_Diablo]

I re-watched last night.
I’m not sure there is any amount of convincing that could change my mind that Daenerys spun Jorah Mormont into that sword as a human shield.

So you think she DID spin him into the sword, or you think she didn’t?

Definitely did.

Maybe watch it again perhaps? Dany (who does not have eyes on the back of her head) is looking away from the attacker, at Jorah. Jorah (who has eyes in the normal human place) turns his head directly toward the attacker, lifts his left arm, and shoves Dany behind himself before taking the blade squarely in the chest. Dany flinches and stumbles awkwardly but never so much as turns her head towards the attacker.



Then she cradles him as he dies in her arms, showing the most emotion she has in eight seasons (even more than when she put Drogo to death):



Do you seriously think the intent of the writers/director/actors in these scenes was to try to convey that Dany had just callously spun him into danger to protect herself? If so, why didn't she then say something like "Oh, I'm so sorry" or have Jorah say "It's okay, I forgive you"? It was never addressed in any way. The music never changed to provide an audio cue that she had done something like that. The camera didn't zoom into her face to suggest she was about to do something like that. These are all things that happen on screen when those types of notable decisions/developments occur, but there was none of that here. Also, Iain Glen's interviews over the past couple days have included no mention of Dany doing anything like that (just discussions of Jorah valiantly sacrificing himself to protect his Khaleesi).

She didn't spin him into danger; he pushed her to safety and sacrificed himself in doing so.

[Lord Ash]

Agreed; Jorah saved her. Obviously she wouldn't throw Jorah between her and the baddies.

[bjornolf]

Maybe watch it again perhaps? Dany (who does not have eyes on the back of her head) is looking away from the attacker, at Jorah. Jorah (who has eyes in the normal human place) turns his head directly toward the attacker, lifts his left arm, and shoves Dany behind himself before taking the blade squarely in the chest. Dany flinches and stumbles awkwardly but never so much as turns her head towards the attacker.



Then she cradles him as he dies in her arms, showing the most emotion she has in eight seasons (even more than when she put Drogo to death):



Do you seriously think the intent of the writers/director/actors in these scenes was to try to convey that Dany had just callously spun him into danger to protect herself? If so, why didn't she then say something like "Oh, I'm so sorry" or have Jorah say "It's okay, I forgive you"? It was never addressed in any way. The music never changed to provide an audio cue that she had done something like that. The camera didn't zoom into her face to suggest she was about to do something like that. These are all things that happen on screen when those types of notable decisions/developments occur, but there was none of that here. Also, Iain Glen's interviews over the past couple days have included no mention of Dany doing anything like that (just discussions of Jorah valiantly sacrificing himself to protect his Khaleesi).

She didn't spin him into danger; he pushed her to safety and sacrificed himself in doing so.

I don’t think she callously spun him. People freaking out and fearing for their lives do things they’d never normally do. I’ve seen it. Look at the Dothraki running for their lives. Zombie armies unnerve even the bravest people.

[JasonEvans]

Here's a good article on whether the battle of Winterfell was too dark (it was) and who's fault that may have been.

Does the blame fall on episode director Miguel Sapochnik and cinematographer Fabian Wagner? Or on us, our stupid TVs, and the factory settings we never changed? Opinion is mixed.

Wagner stands by his work. “A lot of the problem is that a lot of people don’t know how to tune their TVs properly,” he told Wired.

So, is the cinematographer saying he intentionally shot the episode so we would need to adjust our TVs to enjoy it? Wow...

Game Of Thrones is shot as if it’s going to be screened in a professional theater when, for many viewers, that’s most certainly not the case. “The makers of Game of Thrones almost certainly blew it here,” writes Alex Cranz. “They did not take into account two big factors. First, that people would watch streams which could downgrade thanks to the demands on the servers of HBO and other services, and second, that people would watch the episode on uncalibrated displays in rooms that weren’t lit like a movie house.”

[fuse]

Maybe watch it again perhaps? Dany (who does not have eyes on the back of her head) is looking away from the attacker, at Jorah. Jorah (who has eyes in the normal human place) turns his head directly toward the attacker, lifts his left arm, and shoves Dany behind himself before taking the blade squarely in the chest. Dany flinches and stumbles awkwardly but never so much as turns her head towards the attacker.



Then she cradles him as he dies in her arms, showing the most emotion she has in eight seasons (even more than when she put Drogo to death):



Do you seriously think the intent of the writers/director/actors in these scenes was to try to convey that Dany had just callously spun him into danger to protect herself? If so, why didn't she then say something like "Oh, I'm so sorry" or have Jorah say "It's okay, I forgive you"? It was never addressed in any way. The music never changed to provide an audio cue that she had done something like that. The camera didn't zoom into her face to suggest she was about to do something like that. These are all things that happen on screen when those types of notable decisions/developments occur, but there was none of that here. Also, Iain Glen's interviews over the past couple days have included no mention of Dany doing anything like that (just discussions of Jorah valiantly sacrificing himself to protect his Khaleesi).

She didn't spin him into danger; he pushed her to safety and sacrificed himself in doing so.

I’m not saying I am correct.
I am sharing my opinion/interpretation.

I’ve watched the embedded video multiple times and I still see Dany either spinning behind Jorah or spinning him forward.

Perhaps unfair that I originally supposed ill intent in my first post about that moment. Clearly she was overcome with grief at this death, which is not necessarily incongruent with taking action to save yourself.

As always on DBR, reasonable folks can disagree.

I certainly appreciate the perspective and opportunity to see it differently.

[Lord Ash]

I’m not saying I am correct.
I am sharing my opinion/interpretation.

I’ve watched the embedded video multiple times and I still see Dany either spinning behind Jorah or spinning him forward.

Perhaps unfair that I originally supposed ill intent in my first post about that moment. Clearly she was overcome with grief at this death, which is not necessarily incongruent with taking action to save yourself.

As always on DBR, reasonable folks can disagree.

I certainly appreciate the perspective and opportunity to see it differently.

Hm, the thing is, it doesn't really make sense for the characters (I cannot image Dany throwing Jorah in front of her) and physically it doesn't make a ton of sense either, that a 5'2 woman is throwing a 6'1 armored knight around. Plus, storywise, it seems incongruous with what the writers were intending, you know?

To be it looks a bit jarring, but it's definitely him throwing his left arm out to throw her back and simultaneously getting in front of her. I'm not even sure, physically, how she could spin him around.

[El_Diablo]

I don’t think she callously spun him. People freaking out and fearing for their lives do things they’d never normally do. I’ve seen it. Look at the Dothraki running for their lives. Zombie armies unnerve even the bravest people.

Okay, then. If you think Dany spun him in front of herself to protect herself, can you please answer any of the following:
-Why would it make sense for the writers to think that a message of "welp, people freak out and do weird things sometimes, even things they would never normally do" would be a message worth conveying as they killed off a character after 8 seasons?
-Why does Jorah's head snap up, with him looking directly at the attacker, while Dany still has her back to it (and in fact she never sees it)?
-Why does Jorah's left arm rise up and push her back (again, while she is not even looking)?
-Why was there no other indication (e.g., a visual or audio cue) that she was about to do something "she would never normally do."
-Why was Dany's having done something "she would never normally do" not addressed in any way as he lay dying?
-Why has the actor not said anything about Dany having done something "she would never normally do" afterwards when discussing the scene in interviews?

You are essentially saying that (a) the writers made a very weird choice of message to convey in an emotional send-off to a beloved, longtime character, (b) the director screwed up by not adding any context to it, (c) the composer (Ramin Djawadi) screwed up by not adding any context to it, (d) the actors screwed up by making it look like Jorah saw it coming and pushed her behind himself, and (e) Iain Glen forgot all about it when talking about it after the fact. That's really your position?

[JasonEvans]

Come on... can someone really look at that gif and see something other than Jorah throwing Dany aside so he can take the blow instead of her?

[JNort]

Come on... can someone really look at that gif and see something other than Jorah throwing Dany aside so he can take the blow instead of her?

That gif is to dark to see on my phone but when watching the episode I swear it looked like she shoved him also. I even rewound it to see again. I think it was just poor acting execution that made it look like that.

[wilson]

...Not a fan of the tactics...Maybe the idea is that the humans didn't REALLY get how deadly the dead were?...

This was very much my read of the Dothraki charge and, to a lesser extent, the Unsullied's largely ineffective phalanx defense. In the moment, Melisandre's fire magic on the Dothraki swords was clearly meant to engender hope and inspiration in both the viewer and the other human fighters; it was quite literally written on various characters' faces. Then, to see the Dothraki snuffed out so summarily left everyone feeling crestfallen and hopeless.
Say what you will about the tactical wisdom of the Dothraki charge, but to me, it was at least narratively consistent with what we always knew of them. Since Season 1, they've been depicted as fierce, even fanatical fighters who thrive on a sense of bloodthirsty abandon. They were never depicted as the series' most...nuanced thinkers, shall we say? That of course raises very legitimate questions re: representation and race in the series' casting and scripting, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms. I thought the scene at Winterfell was very effective in showing other human allies looking for hope in the Dothraki's boundless fervor for battle, then finding nothing but despair in their swift and unceremonious extinction.