Game of Thrones 2019

[wilson]

...4) Going to be very interesting to see what Jamie does now.

Duh, kill Cersei in some pathos-laden moment, likely with either Brienne or Bran nearby to help complete his redemptive arc while also closing his yin/yang arc with twin sister.

[bjornolf]

I've never served in the military, nor am I a military history buff. But there was so much tactical silliness last night that it took me out of the episode: Why have the Dothraki charge into the darkness against a numerically superior opponent?

I thought the same thing. Basically threw them away. Better to have them strafe the sides after the enemy was engaged a la Battle of the Bastards. Or maybe end around and try to swarm the white walkers. They would have been much more useful against Cersei and the Golden Company. Guess they had to get rid of them, though, because otherwise war against Cersei would be too easy.

They didn’t want to use the dragons because they were trying to wait for the NK and his dragon to reveal himself. They were trying to draw him in, again, a la BoB. In BoW, Daeny played the part of Jon and screwed up the plan by getting emotionally involved. Of course, it may have saved the day because her infantry was getting swarmed. I think they expected the NK to show up a lot earlier.

As for the soldiers, I don’t think they’d all fit inside the castle before they got demolished, especially with all the horses.

[JasonEvans]

The AV Club's expert recap has a number of really good points:

where in the *** does Arya come from? I get that she learned to be stealthy, but I was convinced she would be using her Faceless Man powers to become one of the White Walkers, but instead she…leapt from a tree? Through the air? Off a trampoline? The wind blowing the White Walker’s hair was interesting, but why didn’t Arya jump before he killed Theon if she was nearby? It was a bad*** moment, yes, but the spatiality and timing of it is still very unclear to me and we did rewind to try to understand it better.

The Night King dies without any clear motivation beyond Bran’s abstract notion of his vendetta against memory, and there are a lot of unanswered questions beyond the trajectory and timing of Arya’s approach. And what was Bran doing while Warged into the raven? It’s a bad*** moment, but it confirms that the Night King and his army were a fundamentally empty threat, capable of being erased in one fell swoop and without any kind of purpose beyond their existence. I’m not entirely mad that the takeaway from the battle becomes about a character that I like as much as I like Arya, but when the ice shards settled I just found myself going back and thinking about how the Night King was introduced as a tragedy with his creation and then just wages a war with no stated purpose and dies without doing anything but kill off a few supporting characters whose arcs were always headed toward death to begin with. This is yet another large-scale battle, similar to the Battle of the Bastards, where the moment you start getting your breath back and begin taking stock of what happened, the spell of the immersion breaks and you realize that there’s not as much “there” here as you were hoping for.

So…is Arya Azor Ahai, the Princess that was promised? Melisandre’s whole shtick was about that prophecy, and she was pretty convinced that it was either Jon or Dany once she was no longer convinced it was Stannis, but it never explicitly comes up here

-Jason "there's a lot more in the link... check it out" Evans

[bjornolf]

2) Winterfell is gonna be one awful place to be for a while. There are quite literally something like a million dead bodies decomposing all over the place. Gross!

Well, at least Winter is here. The ones the dragons can’t burn will be frozen solid for a few years. Maybe they can use Cersei’s wildfire to burn them up after they beat her?

They had to get rid of most of the Unsullied and Dothraki or the war against Cersei would’ve been an anticlimactic joke.

[luburch]

Not entirely sure why people are complaining about the Dothraki charging in like they did. It's how they fight. It's who they are as people. Was it a great idea? No. But it's true to their nature.

Also, you wouldn't want your entire army inside the wall. Especially if you're attempting to hold the castle and protect the people inside. It actually seemed like a smart battle plan for once.

Jon and Dany we not supposed to engage with the wights. They were supposed to wait for the NK to show himself and attack. Dany panicked when she saw the Dothraki fall.

Phenomenal score for this episode. Just perfect.

[wilson]

Not entirely sure why people are complaining about the Dothraki charging in like they did. It's how they fight. It's who they are as people. Was it a great idea? No. But it's true to their nature.

Exactly. Very early in season one, we learn that the Dothraki enjoy doing vicious and bloody murder dancing at weddings. Now we want them to ride into a snowy nighttime battle with care and consideration?
My read of the scene at Winterfell was that the other fighters wanted to find hope in the Dothraki's blind, fierce courage, but then once it was snuffed out so quickly, the gravity of the battle set in even deeper.

[mkirsh]

Here are my thoughts after reflecting on the episode. Overall I thought it was just ok - some of that is probably due to my super high expectations, but I also think the show failed to deliver on a lot of the set up of the prior seven seasons. Generally I love GOT as it combines a great political drama with intricate mythology and great action scenes. On the first, this episode was obviously not about politics, but I hope the next 3 get back to that since that is where GOT is at its best IMO.

Mythology is where I feel most let down. All of the build up of the Prince Who Was Promised, Asor Ahai, Lightbringer, Lord of Light - that was just to have Mel light some swords and wooden stakes on fire? And to bring Jon and Beric back to play minor roles in the great battle? And no pay off on the children of the forest or the spirals? Bran warging into ravens only for an areal view of the battle? It seemed like this was supposed to be a different kind of fight, but just ended with a dagger in the heart like any battle with mortals could have ended. Again, this is probably my expectations getting ahead of the show, but it felt a little unfulfilling.

And finally on the battle side, I didn't think this was GOTs best from either plot or execution. On the plot side, in past battles the tactics and strategies have been key to victory or defeat. But running the Dothraki into an offensive charge in a defensive battle, barely using the dragons to burn the wights, not starting the battle with a ring of fire and dragon glass protecting the castle, etc - it certainly wasn't Robb Stark out witting the Lannister army, or Jamie and Cersei outsmarting Dany/Tyrion at Casterly Rock. And on the other side, why didn't the Night King and the Walkers just wait until everyone is dead to enter the battle? I mean they've waited 5,000 years to get south of the wall, but NK wants to walk into an active battle scene to get to a kid in a wheelchair? I did think the Night King having wights form a human ramp over the fire pit was kind of cool though, but the rest didn't make sense. And then from an execution standpoint, this certainly wasn't Hardhome or BoB. The cuts between the front line, inside of the castle, dragons flying in the clouds, people in the crypts, etc I guess were to show scale, but to me it just killed any continuity, making it harder to engage in what was happening, and therefore harder to care about the outcome. Again maybe just me.

Anyway, hopeful that the last 3 episodes get back to the formula of what makes GOT great.

[JasonEvans]

Basically threw them away.

I forgot to mention this earlier, but the Dothraki charge is stupid not just because you threw them away. You are doing more than throwing them away... you are adding them to your enemy. As we saw when John was approaching the Night King, with a raise of his hands, the Night King turns all your dead into his reinforcements. So, you basically took the Dothraki and put them on the Night King's side. They go in, get killed, and then get raised to fight with the Night King.

-Jason "By the way, was it just me or did the Wight who attacked Sam early in the battle look just like Mance Rayder?" Evans

[bjornolf]

I forgot to mention this earlier, but the Dothraki charge is stupid not just because you threw them away. You are doing more than throwing them away... you are adding them to your enemy. As we saw when John was approaching the Night King, with a raise of his hands, the Night King turns all your dead into his reinforcements. So, you basically took the Dothraki and put them on the Night King's side. They go in, get killed, and then get raised to fight with the Night King.

-Jason "By the way, was it just me or did the Wight who attacked Sam early in the battle look just like Mance Rayder?" Evans

Well, yeah, of course. I figured anyone who died was being added to the enemy. The NK would be a total fool not to raise the dead at least once during the battle. I get that the Dothraki are crazy fighters, but they’re light cavalry, not heavy cavalry. A straight on charge into infantry is not their strength. Hell, against the wights, they would have been better off on foot. With the attack on Jaime’s forces the season before, they had a dragon to break the line for them. They didn’t have that here. If they couldn’t keep it in their pants, send them a few miles off to the side and tell them to wait for your signal. They would have listened to Daeny if she’d told them to. Tell them they get a shot at the big baddies, the WW, and they’d be all for it. The Dothraki showed in the last battle at Mereen that they’re capable of waiting for their moment.

I was bummed that Lyanna died, but I LOVED her death. Taking out an undead GIANT! So Awesome! She got herself some there in the end.

[fuse]

An unfair comparison to be sure- the battle in Return of the King was handled far, far better (and with a 10x budget or more, I am sure).

One thing I thought the episode did well was evoke the George RR Martin “no character is safe” throughout.

I thought both Jon and Dany could have been killed last night.
Maybe its the writing/deliberate, the shift in Dany’s approach continues.
Did everybody else see that she saved herself by using Jorah as a human shield?
That’s just cold.

Poor Theon. They actually made me think for a split second that he could be the hero of the battle of Winterfell before the Night King just owned him.

Other than establishing Arya was quiet/sneaky again, what was the purpose of being in the library? (?)

It was really unclear to me if Jon’s dragon died and was raised, or if was the original Night King dragon that had Jon pinned in the castle.

I would have liked to have seen more dragon fighting.

Lyanna Mormont went out like a champ. That made me sad.

Was it Gilly being dragged by the dead in the crypt?

I think the list upthread is accurate and we are a week away (or some article away from clarification), I’m not clear on Gendry, Pod, Brienne or Jaime’s status.

Pretty sure Tormund survived as he was on top of that big pile swinging away.

Whoever drew up the Winterfell battle plan would not be in line to lead my armies.

If there are still 2 dragons, the golden company of 20,000 is irrelevant.

Can Dany even have any army left at this point?
I assume all the Dothraki are dead and most/all of the Unsullied.

I can’t imagine anyone from the North marching south.

[bjornolf]

Gendry and Tormund are shown standing together on top of a pile of bodies after the wights collapse. They are both alive. Rhaegal crashed but survived. He is shown flying with Drogon in the preview for the next episode. Undead Viseryon is the one trying to kill Jon.

Gilly and baby Sam are shown alive in the crypt at the end with Varys, Tyrion, Sansa et al.

The library scene totally reminded me of a TWD episode.

Totally saw Daeny throw Jorah at that wight. I did a double take on that. She’s a total survivor, but not much of a fighter, especially on the ground. She was in total survival mode and panicking. To quote Darkest Dungeon, “the abyss returns even the boldest of gazes.”

[Wander]

The AV Club's expert recap has a number of really good points:

I don't get the Arya complaint. We watched her train for multiple entire seasons – I'm fine with believing she can just jump high or whatever. She was the highlight of the episode and had a satisfying end to her story. I'd be totally fine if she just got a happy ending and mostly sat out the last few episodes.

Everything else needed work though. Theon's charge was stupid – that should have been depicted as him defending Bran from a Night King attack or something. Ghost's role was horrible and borderline insulting to the fans. Jon and Sam were useless. I expect more in the last few episodes from Sansa, Tyrion, Dany, Sam, Jamie, and Jon. Not having some revelation about the zombies was disappointing.

[mph]

-Jason "By the way, was it just me or did the Wight who attacked Sam early in the battle look just like Mance Rayder?" Evans

It’s nearly impossible to say watching in real time. Having said that, I appreciate the decision to avoid making a spectacle out of past characters in wight form, especially Ned Stark.

Not entirely sure why people are complaining about the Dothraki charging in like they did. It's how they fight. It's who they are as people. Was it a great idea? No. But it's true to their nature.

I can see your point if something happened that led the Dothraki to charge against Danny’s orders to hold back, but Jorah led them on an obvious suicide mission under preplanned orders. This was a strategic blunder that should be beyond Danny, Jon, Sansa, Tyrion, Jorah, etc. IMO, the directors were more concerned with a cool visual opening to the battle than respecting what they’d already done to develop the characters.

[bjornolf]

It’s nearly impossible to say watching in real time. Having said that, I appreciate the decision to avoid making a spectacle out of past characters in wight form, especially Ned Stark.



I can see your point if something happened that led the Dothraki to charge against Danny’s orders to hold back, but Jorah led them on an obvious suicide mission under preplanned orders. This was a strategic blunder that should be beyond Danny, Jon, Sansa, Tyrion, Jorah, etc. IMO, the directors were more concerned with a cool visual opening to the battle than respecting what they’d already done to develop the characters.

As my dad said last night, “but after their swords were on fire, they HAD to do SOMETHING!” He was being sarcastic, but it was still hilarious.

[-jk]

Wasn’t it about distracting the dead from Bran so he could draw in the NK?

Perhaps the battle went according to plan...

-jk

[El_Diablo]

Totally saw Daeny throw Jorah at that wight. I did a double take on that. She’s a total survivor, but not much of a fighter, especially on the ground. She was in total survival mode and panicking. To quote Darkest Dungeon, “the abyss returns even the boldest of gazes.”

Yikes, no. Jorah shielded her. She was leaning into him to help him up, with her back to the wight. As the wight closed in, Jorah’s head turned toward the attacker, and he threw his left arm up, pushing her behind himself, taking the sword squarely in the chest. It was a selfless act on his part. It’s at the 1:15:15 mark (just after Theon dies) if you need to watch it again.

[El_Diablo]

Question?
Sam
Grey Worm
Gendry
Pod
Ghost
Tormund
Rhaegal

Anyone have the tally differently?

All survived, including Ghost (who was in the preview for next week's episode).

[thedukelamere]

All survived, including Ghost (who was in the preview for next week's episode).

Looking forward to 3 more episodes of him being criminally misused... If they would have set up a GoFundMe for a direwolf CGI budget, I would have contributed.

Overall the tension they were building worked perfectly, and the score was on par with some of the best episodes in the series. Everything else was not on par with Sapochnik's previous work. BoB worked well in showing the nitty gritty horrors of a battle, while this one was just a chaotic mess.

Lighting wasn't as big as a problem for me as it was for most, but adding the fog and ice storm probably sounded better in theory; it made sense to neutralize the dragons a bit, but it was a bit overkill IMO.

I was hoping Theon would get the Boromir sendoff; take a few repeated fatal blows protecting Bran, have him stagger back up to kill a few more before the NK ended him for good. Instead his charge fell flat for me.

Jamie, Davos and Sam surviving the fight in the manner they did is against the rules of GoT... If you want them to survive, great, find a way to make us believe it was possible due to some decision they make in the battle. These dudes aren't front line hack and slashers.

Needed some one on one WW fights. How the f9fck are you going to show a line of WW's at the end of episode 2 and then have them do absolutely nothing in the battle besides let someone get the jump on your general?

Arya should have carved up a wight or WW and then ripped off their face behind the NK rather than flying in from the top rope. Also should have said "Not Today" as she knifed him.

My wife yelled "DO SOMETHING BRAN!!!!!!!!!!" so many times that the first thing my daughter said this morning was "who's Bran?"

The fact that these amazing writers wrote, approved, table read, directed and edited a scene in which their hero stood up to and yelled at a dragon and didn't immediately die makes my brain hurt.

So many missed opportunities.

[LasVegas]

One thing I dislike that people do is pick apart movies piece by piece for things THEY would have done differently and then try to pass off their ideas as being far superior to the original. It’s just a weird thing to do and a good way to prevent yourself from enjoying the movie/show. Let it be. It’s a great show and I enjoy the ride the writers have taken me on. The goal for the ENTIRE battle was to draw out the night king and get a shot at killing them. Everyone in that place knew that was the ONLY way to win and I think it was a pretty damn good plan.

My only complaint was I had a hard time telling which dragon was which when they were going at it.

[WV_Iron_Duke]

The episode was annoyingly dark. On the Avsforum/hdprogramming thread posters with great tv setups complained of this.
One famous poster posted on USAToday and CNET about it. This was so posters wouldn.t say that it was because your tv wasn't up to snuff.