Game of Thrones 2019

[El_Diablo]

Whoa! She's the only one who knew Cersei was not sending an army. AND she outwitted Littlefinger who many think was the great Machiavelli of the show. PLUS she saved Jon's rear end in the Battle of the Bastards.

She didn't outwit Littlefinger; she and Arya were manipulated by him throughout last season, to the point that they were ready to kill each other. It was only after Bran intervened by sharing the truth about Littlefinger off-screen that the two sisters reconciled (the scene was cut because the showrunners/director wanted to prioritize shock value over storytelling). So she only wised up to Littlefinger because of Bran, but having an all-knowing brother doesn't necessarily make Sansa smart.

She and Littlefinger only saved Jon's rear end in the Battle of the Bastards because she decided to keep that little development to herself, at grievous cost to the Stark/wildling forces. How many of her people were slaughtered needlessly because she didn't tell Jon sooner that they had a potential ally on the way, comprised of forces that were historically allied with the Starks?

Now she is openly antagonizing her primary ally, Daenerys. As Jason noted above, Daenerys should just say, "You won't bend the knee? Oh, really? The Unsullied and Dothraki will be leaving with me and my dragons then." That would shut Sansa up rather effectively, but it goes against the image of Sansa being smart and fierce, so I guess the writers can't let that happen.

I like most of the female characters on this show. I just don't buy the way the writers have decided to make Sansa smart all of the sudden.

[dudog84]

She didn't outwit Littlefinger; she and Arya were manipulated by him throughout last season, to the point that they were ready to kill each other. It was only after Bran intervened by sharing the truth about Littlefinger off-screen that the two sisters reconciled (the scene was cut because the showrunners/director wanted to prioritize shock value over storytelling). So she only wised up to Littlefinger because of Bran, but having an all-knowing brother doesn't necessarily make Sansa smart.

She and Littlefinger only saved Jon's rear end in the Battle of the Bastards because she decided to keep that little development to herself, at grievous cost to the Stark/wildling forces. How many of her people were slaughtered needlessly because she didn't tell Jon sooner that they had a potential ally on the way, comprised of forces that were historically allied with the Starks?

Now she is openly antagonizing her primary ally, Daenerys. As Jason noted above, Daenerys should just say, "You won't bend the knee? Oh, really? The Unsullied and Dothraki will be leaving with me and my dragons then." That would shut Sansa up rather effectively, but it goes against the image of Sansa being smart and fierce, so I guess the writers can't let that happen.

I like most of the female characters on this show. I just don't buy the way the writers have decided to make Sansa smart all of the sudden.

Okay, I can see your points. Don't necessarily agree (for instance, Jon wouldn't listen to her, and Ramsey needed to be lured out so the strategy would work, so those sacrifices had to be made...quite often done in war), but see them.

Anyway, we're at the writers' mercy, aren't we? If they want her to be smart, she's smart.

[dudog84]

Oh, and the Littlefinger scene was one the most memorable moments of the entire run of the show. Certainly not done at the expense of storytelling.

[bundabergdevil]

She didn't outwit Littlefinger; she and Arya were manipulated by him throughout last season, to the point that they were ready to kill each other. It was only after Bran intervened by sharing the truth about Littlefinger off-screen that the two sisters reconciled (the scene was cut because the showrunners/director wanted to prioritize shock value over storytelling). So she only wised up to Littlefinger because of Bran, but having an all-knowing brother doesn't necessarily make Sansa smart.

That's interesting - I hadn't heard that from the showrunners RE the off-screen reconciliation. It actually changes a lot of what I'd understood about last season. They had done plenty (in my mind) to suggest Sansa did not trust Littlefinger and that she fully believed anything he said was to further some sort of ends. She even tells Littlefinger that he is her enemy (if he knew about Ramsey). Arya is supposedly trained int he art of deception and lies. I had 100% assumed any tension between Arya and Sansa was feigned to lure Littlefinger out and that was my operating understanding during all of last season so his execution was no surprise.

BUT, if the showrunners thought it was in character for the two sisters to come under the spell of Littlefinger's lies so easily, that's disappointing...and another point (for me at least) where the writing has really suffered w/o the source material. Really out of character given those two girls' story arc.

[El_Diablo]

Jon wouldn't listen to her, and Ramsey needed to be lured out so the strategy would work, so those sacrifices had to be made...quite often done in war

I am fairly certain Jon would have listened to her if she said that the Vale was on the march, as he was was turning over every stone at the time looking for allies, and House Arryn was a longtime ally (having fought beside House Stark in the Dance of the Dragons and Robert’s Rebellion) with close family ties (Jon Arryn, aka Jon Snow’s literal namesake, fostered Ned Stark at the Eyrie, and the two men married the Tully sisters in a joint ceremony). There is almost no chance he would have passed on the chance to seek an alliance with them. But instead Sansa kept that little secret to herself. And it’s not like the timing of their arrival was part of some master strategy on her part to lure Ramsay out. She said herself that she knows nothing about battles or tactics, and she didn’t know when or even if they would show up. The fortuitous timing was just when they happened to arrive, and had it been a day later, or maybe even five minutes later, Jon and his entire army would have been dead (instead of just half his army). So her decision to keep silent about a potential key ally was a near disaster that only worked out due to something entirely outside of her control.

Anyway, we're at the writers' mercy, aren't we? If they want her to be smart, she's smart.

Yes, that was my point. The writers have decreed that Sansa is now smart, but I have found this to be pretty unconvincing in context.

[El_Diablo]

That's interesting - I hadn't heard that from the showrunners RE the off-screen reconciliation. It actually changes a lot of what I'd understood about last season. They had done plenty (in my mind) to suggest Sansa did not trust Littlefinger and that she fully believed anything he said was to further some sort of ends. She even tells Littlefinger that he is her enemy (if he knew about Ramsey). Arya is supposedly trained int he art of deception and lies. I had 100% assumed any tension between Arya and Sansa was feigned to lure Littlefinger out and that was my operating understanding during all of last season so his execution was no surprise.

BUT, if the showrunners thought it was in character for the two sisters to come under the spell of Littlefinger's lies so easily, that's disappointing...and another point (for me at least) where the writing has really suffered w/o the source material. Really out of character given those two girls' story arc.

Yes, the conflict between the two sisters during Season 7 was real, not feigned. They were even doing it behind closed doors, where it wouldn't make any sense if they were just tricking Littlefinger. Isaac Hempstead Wright (Bran) gave interviews after Season 7 detailing a scene that was cut from the finale, in which Sansa went to Bran for help in dealing with Arya, and he clued her in about everything Littlefinger had been doing. The director and/or showrunners apparently decided to cut the scene to preserve the shock/surprise factor.

[bundabergdevil]

Yes, the conflict between the two sisters during Season 7 was real, not feigned. They were even doing it behind closed doors, where it wouldn't make any sense if they were just tricking Littlefinger. Isaac Hempstead Wright (Bran) gave interviews after Season 7 detailing a scene that was cut from the finale, in which Sansa went to Bran for help in dealing with Arya, and he clued her in about everything Littlefinger had been doing. The director and/or showrunners apparently decided to cut the scene to preserve the shock/surprise factor.

Thanks for sharing. Yeah, when they showed Littlefinger spying on Arya entering his room I’d just assumed it was to let the viewers know he was scheming (again) and that the girls were being watched even - as you note - when they thought they were safe behind closed doors (we know Littlefinger watches people through peepholes!). I thought them outsmarting Littlefinger was to show the fruits of the journeys they’d been on. For me, the writers subverted their character arcs by having them be outsmarted by Littlefinger. That Bran could tell them what’s up makes sense, we’ve just spent many years on the education of Sansa and Arya for them to be had by a dude neither trust.

Anyway, doesn’t matter much now, everyone’s dying tonight. 😀

[JasonEvans]

The director and/or showrunners apparently decided to cut the scene to preserve the shock/surprise factor.

This is also why John (and the audience) do not know that the Knights of the Vayle are galloping to the rescue during the Battle of the Bastards. Sansa is only as smart as the story needs her to be to preserve the big moments that delight the audience.

[Lord Ash]

Anyone read the story about how the Starks are buried with their swords and not burned, and therefore will rise in the crypts... to defend Winterfell?

[JasonEvans]

Anyone read the story about how the Starks are buried with their swords and not burned, and therefore will rise in the crypts... to defend Winterfell?

I can't imagine that. Why should the dead Starks be able to do things every other dead person cannot?

[Lord Ash]

I can't imagine that. Why should the dead Starks be able to do things every other dead person cannot?

Jason... there are dragons. And zombies. Why not have “good guy” magic?

[JasonEvans]

Jason... there are dragons. And zombies. Why not have “good guy” magic?

I get it. We are talking about Melisandre or Bran or someone like that doing it. I thought we were saying the Night King would do it but then be unable to control them.

[wavedukefan70s]

That was a heck of a battle....

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Uh, wow

[fuse]

My key point of confusion is not who died, it is who survived.

I’ll hold further thoughts until tomorrow other than perhaps the anticipation made it a bit anticlimactic.
(Gee, imagine a spoiled Duke fan being a spoiled GoT fan) 🤪

[jimsumner]

Having the entire thing take place in the dark requires another viewing or three. For me, at least.

As an aside, anybody else reminded of the burning of Troy, as told by Homer?

[PackMan97]

I can't imagine that. Why should the dead Starks be able to do things every other dead person cannot?

I haven't seen the episode yet...but there was undead Benjen Stark who played for the good guys. So there is a precedent set here.

[mkirsh]

I feel like I just watched a black screen for 90 mins. What the heck happened?

Roll call of living
John / Aegon
Danny
Drogon
Arya
Bran
Sansa
Tyrion
Davos
Jamie
Brienne
Hound
Varys
Gilly


Dead
Ser friend zone (Jorah)
Theon (stupidly)
Baric
Lyanna Mormont
Ed
Melissandra

Question?
Sam
Grey Worm
Gendry
Pod
Ghost
Tormund
Rhaegal

Anyone have the tally differently?

Sheesh that was intense

[PSurprise]

Welp, winter's over. Time for spring!!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Imma need a minute or two.