MBB: Duke 90, Indiana 69 Post-Game Thread

[lotusland]

Kind of annoying that the ESPN has the “Above the Rim” game replay posted twice along with the Spanish version but no English version. Guess I’m weird but I like having announcers. Sadly I only had one semester of HS Spanish and I sat beside a cute girl so I only learned to almost count to 10.

[richardjackson199]

I just watched - The Last Days of Knight 30 for 30 on ESPN. I lived through that time, but didn't know all this. It was an absolutely fascinating 30 for 30. 2 hours, and fascinating the whole way through. Def worth a watch.

[dukelifer]

I just watched - The Last Days of Knight 30 for 30 on ESPN. I lived through that time, but didn't know all this. It was an absolutely fascinating 30 for 30. 2 hours, and fascinating the whole way through. Def worth a watch.

I agree. It was a bit jarring. Knight was a very angry man- not sure why. K has a similar lofty position at Duke- but as far as we know- his success mellowed him and he unlike Knight- showed a willingness to evolve with the times.

[Indoor66]

I agree. It was a bit jarring. Knight was a very angry man- not sure why. K has a similar lofty position at Duke- but as far as we know- his success mellowed him and he unlike Knight- showed a willingness to evolve with the times.

They had extremely different formative eras. K in the late 60's and 70's as well as his Army experience. Knight not so much.

[Tripping William]

They had extremely different formative eras. K in the late 60's and 70's as well as his Army experience. Knight not so much.

And yet Knight is only 6.5'ish years older than K (October 25, 1940 vs. February 13, 1947).

I, too, thought last night's 30 for 30 was riveting. But also really, really sad (on a lot of levels).

[budwom]

And yet Knight is only 6.5'ish years older than K (October 25, 1940 vs. February 13, 1947).

I, too, thought last night's 30 for 30 was riveting. But also really, really sad (on a lot of levels).

Saw that last night, too. I knew Knight was something of a psychopath* (and I don't use the term loosely) but his behavior was far worse than I imagined, and Myles Brand is even more of a spineless dinkweed than I had thought, which is saying something. The entire Indiana U. hierarchy should be ashamed of themselves. The way they all segued from disbelief mode (somewhat understandable ) to baldface lying/coverup mode was pathetic.
LOL at Knight's assertion that the producer of the piece has had it in for Knight ever since IU beat unc for the national championship...would have made more sense if the producer hadn't gone to FSU.

*check out the definition of psychopath and see what I mean...

[Tripping William]

Saw that last night, too. I knew Knight was something of a psychopath* (and I don't use the term loosely) but his behavior was far worse than I imagined, and Myles Brand is even more of a spineless dinkweed than I had thought, which is saying something. The entire Indiana U. hierarchy should be ashamed of themselves. The way they all segued from disbelief mode (somewhat understandable ) to baldface lying/coverup mode was pathetic.
LOL at Knight's assertion that the producer of the piece has had it in for Knight ever since IU beat unc for the national championship...would have made more sense if the producer hadn't gone to FSU.

*check out the definition of psychopath and see what I mean...

I agree with all of this, but add one factual correction to the highlighted part. IU's claim related to the 1984 Sweet 16 game in which the Dan Dakich IU team beat Jordan's Heels in the Sweet 16 (not the 1981 national title game in which Isiah Thomas's Hoosiers knocked-out the Worthy/Wood/Perkins Heels in the title game). In any case, Robert Abbott -- who broke the original Knight/Reed story for CNN, and produced and narrated last night's piece for ESPN -- not only had no affiliation with "u"NC, he was a sophomore at Florida State in 1984. So, the dude held a 16-year-long grudge, about a game not involving his alma mater? Seriously?

I also LOL'd when IU guys came to Atlanta to view the videotape -- the "smoking gun" -- and the now-deceased Christopher Simpson (the IU VP who was the main "political operative" in the thing) started off the meeting by saying, "We're here to retrieve property stolen from Indiana University." Talk about chutzpah.

Last edit (I promise): Did anyone besides me think that Knight's tiff with Steve Alford was reminiscent of his estrangement with K? I'm sure there are some differences, but the two circumstances struck me as having a lot of similarities.

[budwom]

^ thanks for the correction, and yeah, Knight was a pro at screwing with other people's heads, including Alford and K.

[Steven43]

I never joined the RJ attack brigade, though I was frustrated a bit with his decision making in Maui. That said, Coach K told the team (re: Barrett) to play through Zion more than they did in Maui. The result? Barrett's most efficient game by far. Zion changes the way teams play D. Barrett might find out that less (shots) is more (points) by playing off of and through Zion.

I think you make some astute observations here. I was at the Indiana game and specifically tried to focus on the issue that you brought up, and I concur. I observed a tangible difference — much of the time, anyway — in Barrett’s approach. He seemed to be looking to pass a bit more and to try to get the ball to Williamson as a first option. His shot selection was noticeably more measured and thoughtful than in previous games. The adjustment from being the center of attention in high school to playing team ball at Duke has appears to have been more difficult for Barrett than for the others. I hope he continues to move in the direction of playing team ball. I think that is the key to the success of Duke’s season.

[richardjackson199]

...

Last edit (I promise): Did anyone besides me think that Knight's tiff with Steve Alford was reminiscent of his estrangement with K? I'm sure there are some differences, but the two circumstances struck me as having a lot of similarities.

I thought the same thing about Knight's estrangement of both Alford and K. I'm glad K was able to reconcile their relationship. I thought the program did a nice job of portraying Knight's strongly positive qualities too. He was a complicated man with deep anger, narcissistic, manipulative, abusive, and power problems. I don't disagree with budwom that there are sociopathic, antisocial personality traits.

But Knight was also a generous, brilliant, charismatic, human, and kind man. What he did to Neil Reed and his family was appalling, disgusting, and sad. And there were clearly many more examples of that to others. What he did for the former player with the spine injury was deeply benevolent. And Knight also showed many more examples of actions like that which is why he is deeply respected by guys like K (I think). I don't think it's just for his brilliant basketball mind. Fran Fraschilla talked about how he was an assistant coach for a small mid-major team who played Knight's Indiana team. After the game he said Knight called them out of the blue and spoke for over 90 minutes on strengths he thought their team could optimize and weaknesses he thought they could shore up. Fraschilla said they took it to heart and were able to win their conference.

Knight was complex. K would not be where he is today without Bob Knight. Meaning Duke would not be where we are today. Recall it was Bob Knight who suggested to Tom Butters that he hire unproven Mike Krzyzewski to be Duke's head coach.

Sad story.

[sagegrouse]

Last edit (I promise): Did anyone besides me think that Knight's tiff with Steve Alford was reminiscent of his estrangement with K? I'm sure there are some differences, but the two circumstances struck me as having a lot of similarities.

Did Steve Alford have another John Feinstein to send to write a book on Knight?

[sagegrouse]

Knight was complex. K would not be where he is today without Bob Knight. Meaning Duke would not be where we are today. Recall it was Bob Knight who suggested to Tom Butters that he hire unproven Mike Krzyzewski to be Duke's head coach.

A more complex story IIRC (and there is always a chance). Knight gave Butters some names, not including K. Butters later called him back and asked about K, whose name had surfaced elsewhere, and why he hadn't recommended him to begin with. Knight said he thought Butters would want someone with a better win-loss record. Although K overall was 73-58 over five years, he had gone 9-17 in 1979-80 and 14-11 the year before. Knight then proceeded to praise Krzyzewski to the heavens and give him the strongest recommendation.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I thought the same thing about Knight's estrangement of both Alford and K. I'm glad K was able to reconcile their relationship. I thought the program did a nice job of portraying Knight's strongly positive qualities too. He was a complicated man with deep anger, narcissistic, manipulative, abusive, and power problems. I don't disagree with budwom that there are sociopathic, antisocial personality traits.

But Knight was also a generous, brilliant, charismatic, human, and kind man. What he did to Neil Reed and his family was appalling, disgusting, and sad. And there were clearly many more examples of that to others. What he did for the former player with the spine injury was deeply benevolent. And Knight also showed many more examples of actions like that which is why he is deeply respected by guys like K (I think). I don't think it's just for his brilliant basketball mind. Fran Fraschilla talked about how he was an assistant coach for a small mid-major team who played Knight's Indiana team. After the game he said Knight called them out of the blue and spoke for over 90 minutes on strengths he thought their team could optimize and weaknesses he thought they could shore up. Fraschilla said they took it to heart and were able to win their conference.

Knight was complex. K would not be where he is today without Bob Knight. Meaning Duke would not be where we are today. Recall it was Bob Knight who suggested to Tom Butters that he hire unproven Mike Krzyzewski to be Duke's head coach.

Sad story.

I think the most complex figure ever in college BB and one of the most complex in big time sport. Some people you either love or hate...seems like most people felt both about Knight.

[Tripping William]

A more complex story IIRC (and there is always a chance). Knight gave Butters some names, not including K. Butters later called him back and asked about K, whose name had surfaced elsewhere, and why he hadn't recommended him to begin with. Knight said he thought Butters would want someone with a better win-loss record. Although K overall was 73-58 over five years, he had gone 9-17 in 1979-80 and 14-11 the year before. Knight then proceeded to praise Krzyzewski to the heavens and give him the strongest recommendation.

"He has all of my good qualities, and none of my bad ones" is the conventional wisdom I have always heard about Knight's recommendation. Paging Jim Sumner . . . . [and it's times like this that I miss OlyFan].

[devildeac]

"He has all of my good qualities, and none of my bad ones" is the conventional wisdom I have always heard about Knight's recommendation. Paging Jim Sumner . . . . [and it's times like this that I miss OlyFan].

I have also heard your quote/wisdom above, but I'm not Jim Sumner (d'oh ).

[OldPhiKap]

Did Steve Alford have another John Feinstein to send to write a book on Knight?

"Playing for Knight" -- not well received by the Big Man IIRC.

[sagegrouse]

A more complex story IIRC (and there is always a chance). Knight gave Butters some names, not including K. Butters later called him back and asked about K, whose name had surfaced elsewhere, and why he hadn't recommended him to begin with. Knight said he thought Butters would want someone with a better win-loss record. Although K overall was 73-58 over five years, he had gone 9-17 in 1979-80 and 14-11 the year before. Knight then proceeded to praise Krzyzewski to the heavens and give him the strongest recommendation.

"He has all of my good qualities, and none of my bad ones" is the conventional wisdom I have always heard about Knight's recommendation. Paging Jim Sumner . . . . [and it's times like this that I miss OlyFan].

Well, now I am not 100 percent sure. Feinstein's March to Madness, about a season in the ACC, said that Knight had recommended tow for mer assistants, K and Bob Weltlich, for the job. It doesn't repeat the more nuanced story. This book says that Knight called K. to say he had recommended him for the Iowa State job, which had just come open. In fact, he advised K to take the ISU job when it was offered, even though he had begun discussions with Tom Butters.

[Tripping William]

Well, now I am not 100 percent sure. Feinstein's March to Madness, about a season in the ACC, said that Knight had recommended tow for mer assistants, K and Bob Weltlich, for the job. It doesn't repeat the more nuanced story. This book says that Knight called K. to say he had recommended him for the Iowa State job, which had just come open. In fact, he advised K to take the ISU job when it was offered, even though he had begun discussions with Tom Butters.

Olympic Fan (may he RIP) to the rescue! Post #31.

[Reddevil]

I think the most complex figure ever in college BB and one of the most complex in big time sport. Some people you either love or hate...seems like most people felt both about Knight.

I will not defend Bob Knight, but I think there were a few variables that exacerbate more modern opinions. Football, baseball, basketball, and I am sure coaches of other sports were often merciless in past decades. He grew up that environment. He played in that environment. He coached in that environment. Guys like Woody Hayes and Bob Knight still existed as sports began to be covered live on TV more and more. Then came the age of 24 hour news and many different types of mass media. Our country's culture changed as well. Political correctness turned attitudes about many things that existed for centuries upside down. Many people grew up in those same circumstances and managed to adapt without causing any harm, so again this is not in any way excusing brutish behavior, but those circumstances came quickly, and left many exposed in the new era of being in the spotlight 24/7, and in the new era of treating youngsters differently than how you were treated (see fraternities). There is also a tendency towards presentism. We are quick to judge others without understanding their circumstances. There is the age old upbringing influence. How did coach Knight's father treat him? I do not believe in excuses, but when trying to decipher the motivations of others, sometimes there are reasons for their outcomes.

[Indoor66]

I will not defend Bob Knight, but I think there were a few variables that exacerbate more modern opinions. Football, baseball, basketball, and I am sure coaches of other sports were often merciless in past decades. He grew up that environment. He played in that environment. He coached in that environment. Guys like Woody Hayes and Bob Knight still existed as sports began to be covered live on TV more and more. Then came the age of 24 hour news and many different types of mass media. Our country's culture changed as well. Political correctness turned attitudes about many things that existed for centuries upside down. Many people grew up in those same circumstances and managed to adapt without causing any harm, so again this is not in any way excusing brutish behavior, but those circumstances came quickly, and left many exposed in the new era of being in the spotlight 24/7, and in the new era of treating youngsters differently than how you were treated (see fraternities). There is also a tendency towards presentism. We are quick to judge others without understanding their circumstances. There is the age old upbringing influence. How did coach Knight's father treat him? I do not believe in excuses, but when trying to decipher the motivations of others, sometimes there are reasons for their outcomes.

Tolerance seems more attendant to having greater understanding.