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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Oregon
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Don't one or two of the major conferences keep people out still? I know the old Big East did at one point.
    No major conferences do that, but quite a few others do:

    Conference Teams Conference
    Tournament
    Invites
    America East 9 8
    Atlantic Sun 9 8
    Big West 9 8
    Conference USA 14 12
    Horizon 10 8
    Ivy 8 4
    Northeast 10 8
    Ohio valley 12 8
    Southland 13 8
    Summit 9 8
    Sun Belt 12 10
    SWAC 10 8
    WAC 9 8

    Eight of these conferences had at least one team in the kenpom top 100 this past season, so the belt going to there and ending up "retired" is not inconceivable. In fact, it could have happened this past season.

    Michigan held the belt when they played UNC on 11/28/19. Michigan won, but suppose UNC had won, and then won their next 4 games (in fact, they lost to UK) before facing Harvard on Jan 2. UNC won that one, but suppose they had lost to Harvard - then the belt would reside in the Ivy for the rest of the regular season. Here's what would have happened next:

    On 1/12, Dartmouth beat Harvard
    On 1/26, Harvard beat Dartmouth
    On 2/9, Cornell beat Harvard
    On 2/16, Yale beat Cornell
    On 2/23, Harvard beat Yale
    On 3/8, Cornell beat Harvard
    On 3/9, Cornell beat Dartmouth to complete its season and retire the belt. Cornell finished 7-7 in the Ivy and missed the conference tournament on a tie-breaker.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Quote Originally Posted by Neals384 View Post
    On 3/9, Cornell beat Dartmouth to complete its season and retire the belt. Cornell finished 7-7 in the Ivy and missed the conference tournament on a tie-breaker.
    Cornell then played in one of the lower-rank postseason tournaments (CBI, I think, but maybe CIT), and lost to Robert Morris, which lost to Presbyterian, which lost to ultimate tournament winner Marshall. So Marshall would carry the belt in that unlikely scenario. (This happened in the season-wide imperialism map - not all land was consolidated in the NCAA tournament because Cornell held some at the end of the regular seasons, as did Troy, which failed to make the Sun Belt tournament).
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Oregon
    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    Cornell then played in one of the lower-rank postseason tournaments (CBI, I think, but maybe CIT), and lost to Robert Morris, which lost to Presbyterian, which lost to ultimate tournament winner Marshall. So Marshall would carry the belt in that unlikely scenario. (This happened in the season-wide imperialism map - not all land was consolidated in the NCAA tournament because Cornell held some at the end of the regular seasons, as did Troy, which failed to make the Sun Belt tournament).
    Thanks for the correction.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Ok, so let's look at split belts - what happens when the NCAA champion did not pick up a belt during the course of the season and is awarded its own. We'll give each one of those belts a year designation and mark when the titles get reunified. The "original" belt in this context refers to the one awarded to CCNY in 1950. These charts end at the point in time when the belts are consolidated; for everything after that, consult the original.

    1951 belt, awarded to Kentucky, consolidates with original in 1952 after Kansas beats Kansas State (Kansas took the original from Oklahoma State a little over a week earlier):

    1952 Kentucky Minnesota Washington Idaho Washington Washington State Washington Wyoming Colorado Iowa State (no postseason)
    1953 Iowa State Bradley Nebraska Kansas Kansas State Kansas

    1952 belt, awarded to Kansas, ends up with the 1953 champion (Indiana - so no separate 1953 belt) and consolidates with the original belt early in 1954 when Indiana beats Kansas State (which had ended the prior season holding the original belt with no postseason play):

    1953 Kansas Rice Colorado State New Mexico Wyoming BYU Santa Clara Washington Kansas Indiana
    1954 Indiana

    1954 belt, awarded to La Salle, consolidates with the original in December of the next season after Kentucky takes out Utah

    1955 La Salle Utah Kentucky

    1957 belt, awarded to North Carolina, never changes hands before it consolidates with the original when North Carolina beats Minnesota early in 1958.

    1959 belt, awarded to California, ends up with the 1960 and then 1961 champions (so no separate belts for those years), and consolidates with the original belt late in 1962 in Bradley.

    1960 California USC California Ohio State
    1961 Ohio State Cincinnati
    1962 Cincinnati Wichita State Bowling Green Toledo Drake Bradley

    1963 belt, awarded to Loyola (IL), finishes the 1964 season with NIT champion Bradley (so 1964 ended with the NCAA and NIT champions each holding separate belts) before consolidating in Indiana in 1965. Interestingly enough, St. Louis separately held the original belt and then the 1963 belt during the 1965 season.

    1964 Loyola (IL) Georgetown La Salle Duquesne Villanova St. Joseph's Dayton Depaul NYU Army Bradley (NIT)
    1965 Bradley Saint Louis Indiana

    1965 belt, awarded to UCLA, never changes hands before UCLA consolidates it with the original belt with an early season victory over Ohio State.

    In 1967, things start to get a little interesting. The 1967 belt is awarded to UCLA. UCLA has one loss in the 1968 season, to Houston, which it avenges in the NCAA tournament, so there is no separate 1968 belt. UCLA also has only one loss in the 1969 season and is the 1969 champion (inheriting the original belt with that championship); however UCLA's one loss is the last game of the regular season to USC, which does not make the postseason, so the belts still do not consolidate. In 1970, the 1967 belt wanders through the West Coast Athletic Conference (now the WCC), ending up in San Francisco, which does not make the postseason. The original belt also ends up with a team out of the postseason (Washington State), so the 1971 season starts with three belts at play - the original (Washington State), 1967 (San Francisco), and 1970 (UCLA) belts. The 1967 belt ends up with UCLA at the end of the year (so there's no separate 1971 belt), but after it lost the 1970 belt to Notre Dame in its only loss of the season. The 1970 belt wanders through the Big Ten after Notre Dame loses it to Indiana, ending the 1971 the season with Northwestern (which, I think it goes without saying, is not in the postseason). It then goes on a big journey in 1972 before Providence takes it from Seton Hall in early March, consolidating it with the original belt and bringing it into the NCAA tournament. Those consolidated belts get to Florida State, which UCLA beats to consolidate them, finally, with the 1967 belt. That win for UCLA finishes off a 30-0 1972 season, featuring sophomore center Bill Walton. Fitting that Walton brings an end to the only triple-Walton belt we've seen.

    1967 belt path:

    1968 UCLA Houston UCLA
    1969 UCLA USC (no postseason)
    1970 USC Seattle UC-Santa Barbara UNLV Santa Clara San Francisco Santa Clara UNLV Pacific San Francisco (no postseason)
    1971 San Francisco Stanford BYU USC UCLA
    1972 UCLA

    1970 belt path:

    1971 UCLA Notre Dame Illinois Iowa Indiana Wisconsin Minnesota Michigan State Northwestern (no postseason)
    1972 Northwestern Kentucky Indiana Ohio Michigan Toledo Ohio Miami (OH) Dayton Niagara Fairfield Colgate Seton Hall Providence

    Will cover the last two split belts (1977, 1979) in a separate post.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Last two:

    1977 belt, awarded to Marquette, quickly ends up in the SEC and gets passed around from team to team until landing in Kentucky, which consolidates it with the original belt in the national title game (sigh).

    1978 Marquette Louisville Georgia Auburn Tennessee Mississippi Vanderbilt LSU Florida Mississippi State Auburn Vanderbilt Mississippi Kentucky

    1979 belt, awarded to Michigan State, briefly ends up with Louisville (ultimate 1980 champion) but doesn't stay there, instead ending the season in the NIT with Virginia. Virginia holds it for 22 straight wins in 1981 before a one-point loss at Notre Dame. The belt then ends up in the NCAA tournament where it consolidated with the original belt in Indiana, the 1981 champion.

    1980 Michigan State St. John's Tennessee Louisville Utah UNLV Hawaii UTEP Michigan Virginia (NIT)
    1981 Virginia Notre Dame Depaul St. Joseph's Indiana

    It's been only one, unified belt ever since.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

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