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  1. #161
    I was proud of the team during the comeback. Just dug too deep a hole.

    This team doesn't look poorly coached to me. Sometimes they just don't execute.

    There has definitely been a recruiting slide the last couple of years. I'm not convinced a new coach will fix that, though I suppose it depends on the coach.

  2. #162
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by msdukie View Post
    I can think of two in Chapel Hell that are far worse.
    I sporked you for this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by msdukie View Post
    I wouldn't call beating a 6 seed and 7 seed and then getting blown out by a 1 seed in the title game is not an example of not falling off the map. Remember, she was hired to bring championships (including the big one) to Duke. Duke hasn't won any kind of championship since 2013 and from 2008-2013 was not at the level as when she took the program over. There has been a substantial slide from the 2013 level, including what appears to be 2 NCAA misses in the last 4 years, which, quite frankly, should never happen to Duke with the parity of women's basketball.
    This one was way more deserving.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  3. #163
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    — Duke is 0-3 in the ACC for the first time since 1992-93, Goestenkors’ first year.
    — After 15 games, Duke is 8-7. That is the worst record after 15 games since 1983-84.

  4. #164
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    There has definitely been a recruiting slide the last couple of years. I'm not convinced a new coach will fix that, though I suppose it depends on the coach.
    We have evidence that there exist coaches who can bring top talent to durham. If you're a top recruit, why would you look at duke right now?

    I agree that there is no evidence that THIS season's issues are more a coaching issue than any other, but X/Os aren't everything...and recruiting is a huge part of college sports.
    Zion Williamson broke my brain.

    "If you don't address the things you're not doing well when you're winning the winning will eventually stop."

    -David Cutcliffe

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    We have evidence that there exist coaches who can bring top talent to durham. If you're a top recruit, why would you look at duke right now?
    And they brought that top talent here working in tandem with Coach P. Your question assumes the reason the top recruits haven't signed with Duke the past couple years is they don't want to play for Coach P (if there are other reasons that would repel them now but attract them with a new coach, I can't think what they might be). As I said, I'm not convinced.

  6. #166
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Your question assumes the reason the top recruits haven't signed with Duke the past couple years is they don't want to play for Coach P
    That is absolutely correct. As a top prospect, why would you go to a program that routinely misses the tournament, especially under the coach that over saw a program falling from a final four contender to a state where it is regularly missing the tournament.

    We agree an awful lot, and while I find your commitment to postivity about the women's program admirable, I think you have your head in the sand on this one.
    Zion Williamson broke my brain.

    "If you don't address the things you're not doing well when you're winning the winning will eventually stop."

    -David Cutcliffe

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by msdukie View Post
    I wouldn't call beating a 6 seed and 7 seed and then getting blown out by a 1 seed in the title game is not an example of not falling off the map. Remember, she was hired to bring championships (including the big one) to Duke. Duke hasn't won any kind of championship since 2013 and from 2008-2013 was not at the level as when she took the program over. There has been a substantial slide from the 2013 level, including what appears to be 2 NCAA misses in the last 4 years, which, quite frankly, should never happen to Duke with the parity of women's basketball.
    Yes- she has not brought championships but come on. Since 2013- they finished 2nd twice and 4th twice in the conference, and got to a Sweet 16. The team has had double digit losses only 2 of those years and finished in the top 10 nationally twice. Yes the program is not high-end elite but it is not awful. I agree that P should not be renewed - I think some new blood is needed- but injuries have really hurt this program recently. Since 2011, K has only won 1 ACC Conference or regular season championship and went to the FF once. If not for the NC in 2015- one could make a case that the men's team is in similar decline.
    dukelifer

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by dukelifer View Post
    Yes- she has not brought championships but come on. Since 2013- they finished 2nd twice and 4th twice in the conference, and got to a Sweet 16. The team has had double digit losses only 2 of those years and finished in the top 10 nationally twice. Yes the program is not high-end elite but it is not awful. I agree that P should not be renewed - I think some new blood is needed- but injuries have really hurt this program recently. Since 2011, K has only won 1 ACC Conference or regular season championship and went to the FF once. If not for the NC in 2015- one could make a case that the men's team is in similar decline.
    Similar decline??? What? Does K have losing ACC record this year and nobody told me?

  9. #169
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by dukelifer View Post
    If not for the NC in 2015- one could make a case that the men's team is in similar decline.
    We are literally the number one team in the country. We lost in the Elite 8 last year, to #4 Kansas by 4 points. How is that a decline?
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    That is absolutely correct. As a top prospect, why would you go to a program that routinely misses the tournament, especially under the coach that over saw a program falling from a final four contender to a state where it is regularly missing the tournament.

    We agree an awful lot, and while I find your commitment to postivity about the women's program admirable, I think you have your head in the sand on this one.
    My head may be in the sand, but taking something that happened in 2016 and then (maybe) again in 2019 (and at no other time since long before Coach P arrived at Duke) and describing it as "routinely" or "regularly" occurring would appear to be severely overstating your case.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    We are literally the number one team in the country. We lost in the Elite 8 last year, to #4 Kansas by 4 points. How is that a decline?
    Knowing the fan base- being number 1 now and not in the FF in April- there will be some folks wondering why we are not recruiting long term players- etc etc. My point is that using championships as the main measure of success - one can skew the interpretation of a program. I want to be clear that I am not disappointed as Duke fan - even if we do not reach a FF this season. I also think getting an ACC championship and not a FF is still a good season- but I am probably in the minority.
    dukelifer

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by dukelifer View Post
    My point is that using championships as the main measure of success - one can skew the interpretation of a program.
    I think someone's view depends on when they began their fandom. If you were at Duke (or started rooting for Duke) in the 1970s or early 1980s (as I was), the idea that anything-short-of-a-national-championship-is-a-failure was laughable. Every achievement was celebrated because those achievements were rare and precious. It can be (and has been) persuasively argued that Coach K's success (and to a lesser extent Coach G's) severely spoiled the younger segment of the Duke fan base.

  13. #173
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    My head may be in the sand, but taking something that happened in 2016 and then (maybe) again in 2019 (and at no other time since long before Coach P arrived at Duke) and describing it as "routinely" or "regularly" occurring would appear to be severely overstating your case.
    I think you're undervaluing the importance of making the tournament for top women's programs. I think the distribution and impact of top recruits in women's basketball is greater than that in men. The degree to which the "impact" distribution falls off is much greater, So the school choices of those players is very important. It turns out those players simply don't go to teams that regularly miss the tournament. Looking at the landing places for top recruits, they fall in two categories:

    Schools that never miss the tournament ever: (last miss)

    stanford: 1987
    TN: 1981
    Baylor: 2003
    ND: 1995
    Connecticut: 1988

    Schools that got a coach who built a program recently from regularly missing the tournament to rarely missing ever:
    USC: 2011 (dawn staley got them there in her to the tourney in her fourth year and hasn't missed since)
    MD: 2010 (Frese's only miss since her first year)
    OSU: 2014 (McGuff's first year)
    Mississippi State: 2014 (Schaefer's second year)
    Louisville: 2010 (Walz's second season)
    Syracuse: 2012 (Hillsman turned them from consistently missing to going every year)
    Missouri: 2015 (program was awful under stein and hasn't missed since)
    texas: 2014 (Aston's first season)

    This encompasses the top 10 recruits each of the last two years. What does it say that Duke will have missed the tournament twice since any program on that list has missed? That's not a good look. Top players simply don't go to programs that miss the tournament. The data is pretty damning. best player this year is #77, best player next year is #58. These are good kids, but not the kind of recruits that are going to take this program out of the relative doldrums.

    The bar has lowered from title, to final four, to now just making the tournament.

    The program is not getting recruits, and the program is not winning.
    Zion Williamson broke my brain.

    "If you don't address the things you're not doing well when you're winning the winning will eventually stop."

    -David Cutcliffe

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    ...

    The bar has lowered from title, to final four, to now just making the tournament.

    The program is not getting recruits, and the program is not winning.
    Just like the men's program.

  15. #175
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Quote Originally Posted by dukelifer View Post
    Since 2011, K has only won 1 ACC Conference or regular season championship and went to the FF once. If not for the NC in 2015- one could make a case that the men's team is in similar decline.
    You could make a case, but it would be unpersuasive.

  16. #176
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    The Duke men's BB program is the #1 program in college BB by just about any measure.

    The Duke women's BB program under Coach G was a top 10, arguably a top 5 program measured in term of recruiting and results.

    Where would folks rank our women's program now. I would say top 40 and falling.
    Last edited by chrishoke; 01-12-2019 at 12:19 PM.
    "This is the best of all possible worlds."
    Dr. Pangloss - Candide

  17. #177
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by chrishoke View Post
    The Duke women's BB program under Coach G was a top 10, arguably a top 5 program measured in term of recruiting and results.

    Where would folks rank our women's program now. I would say top 40 and falling.
    Team wise, we are not in the top 40. This is an expected down year, however.
    Program wise, I would say top 30, and falling. This is born out in landing lesser recruits more than wins and losses. I have no doubt that Duke can get back to being an elite program. New blood selling Duke as a program on the rebound is more than possible. A prime example is Texas, ironically led by Coach G into waters that Duke is now treading. They are a top team again. (Currently ranked 11, with both losses to top 10 teams.)
    There is no denying that Coach P has overseen the gradual decline of DWBB. Yes, there have been some successes in the last 5 years, but not enough to stave off the slippery slope, and it is getting very slippery.

    As I've said before...bring on Coach Joy Cheek!
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Corey View Post
    You could make a case, but it would be unpersuasive.
    Perhaps. There are a lot of folks who see one FF in 8 years as a failure of Duke's program. Some have argued that K's reliance on one and done players has been the problem. Duke's program is still relevant but it is not winning championships of any kind or getting to the FF at the same rate as other top programs in recent years. Fair - probably not- but one can easily be critical.
    dukelifer

  19. #179
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by dukelifer View Post
    [not] getting to the FF at the same rate as other top programs in recent years
    Like who? In the past 5 years

    UK: 2
    UNC: 2
    Duke: 1
    Nova: 2
    Kansas: 1
    UCLA: 0
    Michigan State: 1
    Wisconsin: 2

    Quite the failure to have fallen 1 behind a couple schools. Fortunately, our failure as a men's program doesn't seem to have deterred top recruits in the same way it has for the women.

    The men's game changed. The age of dynastic runs of final four after final four is over.
    Zion Williamson broke my brain.

    "If you don't address the things you're not doing well when you're winning the winning will eventually stop."

    -David Cutcliffe

  20. #180
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Quote Originally Posted by dukelifer View Post
    Perhaps. There are a lot of folks who see one FF in 8 years as a failure of Duke's program. Some have argued that K's reliance on one and done players has been the problem. Duke's program is still relevant but it is not winning championships of any kind or getting to the FF at the same rate as other top programs in recent years. Fair - probably not- but one can easily be critical.
    Please stop.

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