2018-19 Duke Women's BB

[richmclean]

an Immense amount of pressure to be sure. sink or swim.

Bobby Hurley with the 3 from the top of the key vs UNLV pressure?

[arnie]

I feel really, really sorry for K's successor...

-jk

If he gets 12+ years at the helm I don’t think I’ll feel too sorry for him😀

[ehdg]

I feel really, really sorry for K's successor...

-jk

I’d feel even sorrier for Coach Cut’s replacement after what he’s made the fans/supporters expect.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I’d feel even sorrier for Coach Cut’s replacement after what he’s made the fans/supporters expect.

Coach Cut has done an amazing job of making Duke football respectable again, but what he's done is not equivalent to K's or G's accomplishments. Yes, we made it to the ACC championship game. Once.
K and G were regular faces there, and often on the champion's podium. Neither went long stretches of not being in the top 25. (Much less the top 10.)
Not knocking Cutcliffe at all. However, I have faith that whomever his eventual successor may be, will be able to match Cut's regular success. Now, if Cutcliffe DOES start getting us in the championship game every other year or so, and in tier one bowls EVERY year, then it will be a different story. (And I'm always hopeful that happens!)

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Coach Cut has done an amazing job of making Duke football respectable again, but what he's done is not equivalent to K's or G's accomplishments. Yes, we made it to the ACC championship game. Once.
K and G were regular faces there, and often on the champion's podium. Neither went long stretches of not being in the top 25. (Much less the top 10.)
Not knocking Cutcliffe at all. However, I have faith that whomever his eventual successor may be, will be able to match Cut's regular success. Now, if Cutcliffe DOES start getting us in the championship game every other year or so, and in tier one bowls EVERY year, then it will be a different story. (And I'm always hopeful that happens!)

Football is a totally different situation than BB or women's BB. The universe of women's BB is by far the smallest of those three. What Coach G did was amazing, given the program was not even taken seriously when she arrived. But what Cut has done is just as amazing or more IMO, simply because winning at Duke in FB is just about the hardest gig in all of college sports.

What K has done is the most incredible of all, clearly - but again, a small school can build a basketball program much easier than they can build a FB program - mostly owing to the inherent differences in the requirements for personnel, money, fans, etc, between the sports. Duke FB defies gravity every time they go 6-6 or better.

[ehdg]

Coach Cut has done an amazing job of making Duke football respectable again, but what he's done is not equivalent to K's or G's accomplishments. Yes, we made it to the ACC championship game. Once.
K and G were regular faces there, and often on the champion's podium. Neither went long stretches of not being in the top 25. (Much less the top 10.)
Not knocking Cutcliffe at all. However, I have faith that whomever his eventual successor may be, will be able to match Cut's regular success. Now, if Cutcliffe DOES start getting us in the championship game every other year or so, and in tier one bowls EVERY year, then it will be a different story. (And I'm always hopeful that happens!)

I love what Coach K has done and what Coach G did during her time here. But what I'm saying is Cut has had the harder job. Our football was in much worse shape when he took it over compared to where either of the basketball programs were. The talent, the attitude, the fan/alumni support and facilities where no where near as good and strong as either of the basketball programs had. So I think Cut has done more with he had to work with then either G or K had to do. They had a better base to build on!!

[jimsumner]

K took over a program that had been to the national title game two years before, the Elite Eight two weeks before.

Cut took over a program that was a national laughingstock.

But K has sustained his program at an elite level for almost four decades.

Now, that's an accomplishment. If we exclude 1995, for obvious reasons and assume an NCAAT bid this season, also for obvious reasons, the man will have made the NCAA Tournament for 35 consecutive seasons, with only the 1996 team actually on the bubble.

So, again, we talking pomegranates and kumquats.

[sagegrouse]

K took over a program that had been to the national title game two years before, the Elite Eight two weeks before.

Cut took over a program that was a national laughingstock.

But K has sustained his program at an elite level for almost four decades.

Now, that's an accomplishment. If we exclude 1995, for obvious reasons and assume an NCAAT bid this season, also for obvious reasons, the man will have made the NCAA Tournament for 35 consecutive seasons, with only the 1996 team actually on the bubble.

So, again, we talking pomegranates and kumquats.

Both achievements are noteworthy. Cutcliffe took a "historically" awful program and made it good. ("Historicallyl" certainly dates me -- we won the ACC my first three years at Duke.)

K took a historically good program and turned it into the strongest program in college basketball -- and has sustained that for over 30 years.

K's accomplishment is greater, but that is certainly not to denigrate at all the accomplishments of Duke football under Cut's leadership.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Duke FB defies gravity every time they go 6-6 or better.

I respectfully disagree, although I see where you are coming from, because I was there in those days as well. Just think, there are kids out there about to be teenagers that will not remember Duke football being anything less than a moderate success.

I'm happy that we are setting out sights on better records, and I know Coach Cut is too.

PS, it's more fun to talk about Cut's success than P's failures, in any thread.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I respectfully disagree, although I see where you are coming from, because I was there in those days as well. Just think, there are kids out there about to be teenagers that will not remember Duke football being anything less than a moderate success. .

I appreciate the polite discussion, but you and I disagree on this. The Duke basketball job brings with it many things, including a home arena that is one of the most famous and feared/respected/beloved/hated/ historic venues in all of sports. Playing for Duke, in the ACC, means big time atmospheres every single game. It means being the other teams' super bowl pretty much every time out. Duke BB is also very well funded, owing to its success of course.

Duke football is just the opposite. Probably the worst home environment, or non-environment, in all of college football. It's a nicer looking environment now, but still very poor vis a vis home advantage. Non competitive on coaching salaries up and down the line. (not as bad as it used to be, but the arms race in FB is killing the smaller schools). That goodness to Duke hoops, the Duke Cheats rivalry in hoops, and Dabo's boys in orange - all pouring money into the ACC dividend account, or Duke couldnt' even afford football IMO.

These recruits watch these games on TV...they want the big time atmosphere. Most athletes do, and to most, it's a big deal. Cut has to find players who are against the grain in this regard. Same with coaches. Duke is kind of exhibit A of how a small school can indeed be big time in basketball while doing so in football is a real struggle - and this gets more extreme every year.

As for what Coach G did, it was quite spectacular...but there simply isn't an arms race in women's hoops like there was/is in college FB. G could play off the success of the men's teams, and to K and her credit, they helped each other. What Cut is trying to do is simply a lot harder than either of the other situations. (and of course to K's credit, he is responsible for Duke's hoops now having significant tail winds - while Cut faces headwinds NOT of his own making.)

[CameronBornAndBred]

Duke football is just the opposite. Probably the worst home environment, or non-environment, in all of college football. It's a nicer looking environment now, but still very poor vis a vis home advantage. Non competitive on coaching salaries up and down the line. (not as bad as it used to be, but the arms race in FB is killing the smaller schools). That goodness to Duke hoops, the Duke Cheats rivalry in hoops, and Dabo's boys in orange - all pouring money into the ACC dividend account, or Duke couldnt' even afford football IMO.

I don't disagree with anything you said, however, Duke didn't give the FB program ANY support until Cut's arrival. And his arrival was largely contingent on that support. So the rise of Duke Football is a team effort between both the coaching staff and the athletic department.

I feel like I'm debating whether Cut has done a magnificent job, and that's not the case. He totally has. But he also had new found support that no other coaches before him did. And he has still yet to arise to the great heights that both Coach K and Coach G regularly achieved, which was the initial basis behind this hijacking.
G pulled a program out of the tombs of mediocrity, and made us perennial ACC champions and NCAA championship contenders. When Cut does the same, I'll say he has done the better job. Once again, this is not in any way an insult to Cut; I wouldn't trade him for the world and wish him a long tenure here at Duke.

(PS, just about everything you said could be applied to the women's program when G arrived. Not all things were created equal just because the men were great.)

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I don't disagree with anything you said, however, Duke didn't give the FB program ANY support until Cut's arrival. And his arrival was largely contingent on that support. So the rise of Duke Football is a team effort between both the coaching staff and the athletic department.

I feel like I'm debating whether Cut has done a magnificent job, and that's not the case. He totally has. But he also had new found support that no other coaches before him did. And he has still yet to arise to the great heights that both Coach K and Coach G regularly achieved, which was the initial basis behind this hijacking.
G pulled a program out of the tombs of mediocrity, and made us perennial ACC champions and NCAA championship contenders. When Cut does the same, I'll say he has done the better job. Once again, this is not in any way an insult to Cut; I wouldn't trade him for the world and wish him a long tenure here at Duke.

(PS, just about everything you said could be applied to the women's program when G arrived. Not all things were created equal just because the men were great.)

You're right, the mountain before Cut was EVEN higher, but the mountain for Duke in FB is still almost uniquely large in all of Division 1. That's not really relevant to my point. Even small Vandy, in the SEC, gets a lot of love from Nashville and has pretty decent fan support, something Duke does not get from Durham, all the Bull City Proud efforts notwithstanding.

And the mountain in women's hoops is simply not nearly the same thing.

[uh_no]

You're right, the mountain before Cut was EVEN higher, but the mountain for Duke in FB is still almost uniquely large in all of Division 1. That's not really relevant to my point. Even small Vandy, in the SEC, gets a lot of love from Nashville and has pretty decent fan support, something Duke does not get from Durham, all the Bull City Proud efforts notwithstanding.

And the mountain in women's hoops is simply not nearly the same thing.

Yeah...don't know of any other stadium that all but strip searches you on your way in...

[Kfanarmy]

Bobby Hurley with the 3 from the top of the key vs UNLV pressure?

Far worse I suspect. The pressure on a coach to meet the expectations of a fan base of national title contending program doesn't go away. I would think it is probably a grinding, ever-present force that could be debilitating to all but the most well adjusted. Of course if you meet or exceed expectations it must be exhilarating: for K and the few in his stratosphere of coaching. But for those who reach the pinnacle of programs and can't maintain their program at that level, the pressure must be insane. Either become a diamond or get crushed to nothing.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Far worse I suspect. The pressure on a coach to meet the expectations of a fan base of national title contending program doesn't go away. I would think it is probably a grinding, ever-present force that could be debilitating to all but the most well adjusted. Of course if you meet or exceed expectations it must be exhilarating: for K and the few in his stratosphere of coaching. But for those who reach the pinnacle of programs and can't maintain their program at that level, the pressure must be insane. Either become a diamond or get crushed to nothing.

I don't know...I've changed my thinking a bit on this because I think a few new factors, or factors that are now bigger than they used to be, have changed the equation a bit.

When you look at Clemson and Alabama football, and Duke basketball, the incredible status those three programs have is kind of self sustained by an ever growing social media and ESPN universe. Today, almost every 4/ 5* recruit will put Clemson and Alabama on their list by default, and many will choose one of the two. Most of the OAD types and other 4/5 stars in hoops will put Duke on their list by default as well, and often choose Duke.

And I would add that this self sustaining dynamic is even more powerful in football, simply because of the number of players, years of recruiting, and money for coaching it would take to unseat them now that they're there. It's a rich get richer arms race in football.

This is not to diminish anything that Saban, Dabo or K has accomplished. Each man put their program in those positions. But I now think it's actually easier to stay on top than to get there, and for the other decades of my life, I've thought the opposite. I think things have changed a bit.

[CamrnCrz1974]

As for what Coach G did, it was quite spectacular...but there simply isn't an arms race in women's hoops like there was/is in college FB. G could play off the success of the men's teams, and to K and her credit, they helped each other. What Cut is trying to do is simply a lot harder than either of the other situations. (and of course to K's credit, he is responsible for Duke's hoops now having significant tail winds - while Cut faces headwinds NOT of his own making.)

Without commenting on David Cutcliffe and what he has accomplished with Duke football, I wanted to mention a few things about the Duke WBB program when Gail Goestenkors took over as head coach (her first season at Duke was 1992-93).

As Jim Sumner noted, Coach K took over (in 1980) a program that had been to the national title game two years before, the Elite Eight two weeks before. And as we know, Coach K led Duke to Final Four appearances in 1986, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, and 1992, reaching the title game four times and winning two national titles.

In the same time frame, from 1978 (the year Duke went to the national title game) to 1992, the women's basketball team had one 20-win season (in 15 years), one NCAA Tournament berth (though the first NCAA Women's Tournament was played in 1982), double-digit losses in 13 of 15 seasons (with 8 losses and 9 losses in the other two), and was only able to finish better than 5th in the ACC a total of 4 times in 15 seasons.

Also, around the same time, UNC was growing its program (and won win the NCAA Championship in 1994), Virginia made the Final Four for three straight years (1990, 1991, and 1992), NC State made the Sweet 16 four out of five seasons (from 1986-87 through 1990-91), and Clemson made the NCAA Tournament for seven straight years (1988-1994) and reached the Elite Eight in 1991. In other words, the ACC was pretty darn good when Goestenkors took over.

If it were as simple as being able to "play off the success of the men's team[]," one might wonder why it was not done before.

[AustinDevil]

Without commenting on David Cutcliffe and what he has accomplished with Duke football, I wanted to mention a few things about the Duke WBB program when Gail Goestenkors took over as head coach (her first season at Duke was 1992-93).

As Jim Sumner noted, Coach K took over (in 1980) a program that had been to the national title game two years before, the Elite Eight two weeks before. And as we know, Coach K led Duke to Final Four appearances in 1986, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, and 1992, reaching the title game four times and winning two national titles.

In the same time frame, from 1978 (the year Duke went to the national title game) to 1992, the women's basketball team had one 20-win season (in 15 years), one NCAA Tournament berth (though the first NCAA Women's Tournament was played in 1982), double-digit losses in 13 of 15 seasons (with 8 losses and 9 losses in the other two), and was only able to finish better than 5th in the ACC a total of 4 times in 15 seasons.

Also, around the same time, UNC was growing its program (and won win the NCAA Championship in 1994), Virginia made the Final Four for three straight years (1990, 1991, and 1992), NC State made the Sweet 16 four out of five seasons (from 1986-87 through 1990-91), and Clemson made the NCAA Tournament for seven straight years (1988-1994) and reached the Elite Eight in 1991. In other words, the ACC was pretty darn good when Goestenkors took over.

If it were as simple as being able to "play off the success of the men's team[]," one might wonder why it was not done before.

The quoted poster can and I'm sure will speak for themselves, but I did not read the quoted language as saying it was simple to make Duke into the perennial Top 5 program that G bequeathed to the current coach, but rather just that G's willingness to work, and skill at working, with K was a major factor.

I'd actually forgotten how prominent the relationship was between the men's and women's teams in those years. It's sad that there appears to be almost no relationship today.

[CameronBornAndBred]

End of 1st quarter, DWBB down 18-9. End of 2nd, Odom ties it on a sweet play to go to the locker room 34-34.

LGD!

[chrishoke]

We are playing at Boston College tonight. Duke trailed 18-9 after the first quarter but made a really nice run in the last 5 minutes of the half to tie it up at 34.

[chrishoke]

Goodchild is having her best game and has 18 points. Duke leads 45-41 with 5 min. left in the 3rd.