Duke Dunk Report - 2019

[Kedsy]

Weren't there a couple very clear discrepencies in the dunk totals reported by the team on social media last year? Like, Duke's account would post something about Bagley having x number of dunks, but the total according to the Duke box scores as we tracked it in the thread was different

Last year, we had a couple discrepancies, but my recollection is it was one or two dunks for the season, not one or two a game.

(and we can now probably assume that the total according to the NCAA box scores was...even different-er)?

I'm actually a little worried about this, but I'm too tired to go through the NCAA boxes for every game of last season.

[El_Diablo]

Using the ESPN and NCAA play by play summaries, I rewatched the game tape to look at the shots that one or both credited as dunks. I would score them as follows:

Zion: 6
Bolden: 3 (a fourth one was counted as a dunk by ESPN/NCAA but was more of an alley-oop that he gathered with one hand and layed in from the side; I did not count it as a dunk here, but it was a close call; it was at the 11:24 mark in the first half if anyone else wants to watch it and weigh in)
DeLaurier: 2 (the first of which was a close call, somewhat similar to the Bolden one above; it was an alley-oop that he caught with two hands and quickly slammed through without his hands pulling down on the rim; ESPN counted it as a dunk, but I can see why GoDuke/NCAA didn't; I would go with ESPN on this one, but it was at the 7:42 mark in the first half if anyone else wants to weigh in)
Barrett: 1 (the NCAA box score also credited him with a second half dunk, but it was just a layup off the backboard and not even a close call)
White: 1
Total: 13

[BandAlum83]

Using the ESPN and NCAA play by play summaries, I rewatched the game tape to look at the shots that one or both credited as dunks. I would score them as follows:

Zion: 6
Bolden: 3 (a fourth one was counted as a dunk by ESPN/NCAA but was more of an alley-oop that he gathered with one hand and layed in from the side; I did not count it as a dunk here, but it was a close call; it was at the 11:24 mark in the first half if anyone else wants to watch it and weigh in)
DeLaurier: 2 (the first of which was a close call, somewhat similar to the Bolden one above; it was an alley-oop that he caught with two hands and quickly slammed through without his hands pulling down on the rim; ESPN counted it as a dunk, but I can see why GoDuke/NCAA didn't; I would go with ESPN on this one, but it was at the 7:42 mark in the first half if anyone else wants to weigh in)
Barrett: 1 (the NCAA box score also credited him with a second half dunk, but it was just a layup off the backboard and not even a close call)
White: 1
Total: 13

I remember those close calls and wondered at the time if they were dunks or not.

Is there a definition of what is a dunk? Seems like a silly question, but probably isn't. If a player guides a ball down trough the rim without propelling it, is it still a dunk?

Is there a difference between a slam dunk and a regular dunk?

[El_Diablo]

I remember those close calls and wondered at the time if they were dunks or not.

Is there a definition of what is a dunk? Seems like a silly question, but probably isn't. If a player guides a ball down trough the rim without propelling it, is it still a dunk?

Is there a difference between a slam dunk and a regular dunk?

I think the SCOTUS analysis of the term “hardcore pornography” applies to dunks: “I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it . . . .”

[cato]

Is there a definition of what is a dunk?

If there is, I’m pretty sure there is a picture of Zion in the entry.

[gus]

If there is, I’m pretty sure there is a picture of Zion in the entry.

evc_NCB_20181114_emu__duke_81fe2aa6_3bc9_4ff8_99b8_98d561918fb7.jpg

[HereBeforeCoachK]

evc_NCB_20181114_emu__duke_81fe2aa6_3bc9_4ff8_99b8_98d561918fb7.jpg

Either I'm blind, horizontally challenged in my perception, or bad at geometry...OR- a straight line from the top of Zion's head would end up ABOVE THE RIM!!!!

[cato]

Either I'm blind, horizontally challenged in my perception, or bad at geometry...OR- a straight line from the top of Zion's head would end up ABOVE THE RIM!!!!

That’s what I thought. Unfortunately I don’t think we can tell for sure due to the angle.

[arnie]

That’s what I thought. Unfortunately I don’t think we can tell for sure due to the angle.

If Zion is 6’7” tall, add an inch for shoes and his vertical must be 40 inches to match top of rim. Seems about right.

[Neals384]

OK, after going through the play-by-play at ncaa.com and comparing to the play-by-play at goduke.com:

goduke.com shows 12 dunks for Duke: Zion 5, Bolden 4, Barrett, DeLaurier ansd White 1 each
ncaa.com shows 16 dunks for Duke: Zion 7, Bolden 4, Barret 2, DeLaurier 2, White 1

What's the difference? The following dunks are recorded on ncaa.com but shown as a "jumper" or "Layup" at goduke.com:
1H
7:41 DeLaurier
5:21 Zion
2H
18:00 Zion
16:15 Barrett

If someone wants to look at a replay and check these possesions, we might be able to establish who got it right. Thanks.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

OK, after going through the play-by-play at ncaa.com and comparing to the play-by-play at goduke.com:

goduke.com shows 12 dunks for Duke: Zion 5, Bolden 4, Barrett, DeLaurier ansd White 1 each
ncaa.com shows 16 dunks for Duke: Zion 7, Bolden 4, Barret 2, DeLaurier 2, White 1
.

That's a ridiculous disparity. Inexcusable on someone's part.

[BandAlum83]

I think the SCOTUS analysis of the term “hardcore pornography” applies to dunks: “I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it . . . .”

Mega sporks for that most excellent response!

[BandAlum83]

OK, after going through the play-by-play at ncaa.com and comparing to the play-by-play at goduke.com:

goduke.com shows 12 dunks for Duke: Zion 5, Bolden 4, Barrett, DeLaurier ansd White 1 each
ncaa.com shows 16 dunks for Duke: Zion 7, Bolden 4, Barret 2, DeLaurier 2, White 1

What's the difference? The following dunks are recorded on ncaa.com but shown as a "jumper" or "Layup" at goduke.com:
1H
7:41 DeLaurier
5:21 Zion
2H
18:00 Zion
16:15 Barrett

If someone wants to look at a replay and check these possesions, we might be able to establish who got it right. Thanks.

1H
7:41 DeLaurier Defintiely a Dunk, but not a "slam dunk"
5:21 Zion Definitely a lay up Not a dunk
2H
18:00 Zion This was the MONSTER DUNK, over the shoulder pass from Tre. Definitely a dunk!
16:15 Barrett Definitely a lay up (underhand) Not a dunk

[yancem]

I remember those close calls and wondered at the time if they were dunks or not.

Is there a definition of what is a dunk? Seems like a silly question, but probably isn't. If a player guides a ball down trough the rim without propelling it, is it still a dunk?

Is there a difference between a slam dunk and a regular dunk?

I define a dunk as the pushing the ball down and through the rim from above it. I don’t think touching the rim is necessary. So I think that Bolden alley oop counts, but a finger roll wouldn’t because wIle the hand is above the rim the ball is not propelled downward. Not sure if there is an official definition but that’s mine, so it must be correct, it’s on the internet 😁.

[Acymetric]

I define a dunk as the pushing the ball down and through the rim from above it. I don’t think touching the rim is necessary. So I think that Bolden alley oop counts, but a finger roll wouldn’t because wIle the hand is above the rim the ball is not propelled downward. Not sure if there is an official definition but that’s mine, so it must be correct, it’s on the internet 😁.

I feel like contact with the rim is requisite (remember that when "dunking" was illegal during warmups players would do exactly what you describe to avoid infraction), but your definition is definitely reasonable. No clue what the "official" definition is.

[Kedsy]

Depending on which box score you look at, we either had 12 or 14 dunks tonight:

Official Duke box: 12 (Zion 5, Marques 4, RJ 1, Javin 1, Jack 1);

NCAA.com box: 14 (Zion 6, Marques 4, RJ 2, Javin 1, Jack 1).

Which gives us either 23 (NCAA) or 19 (Duke) for the season (3 games):

Zion 10 or 8;
Marques 6 or 5;
RJ 4 or 3;
Cam 1;
Javin 1;
Jack 1;

23 (NCAA) or 19 (Duke).

Makes me wonder if we had the same problem last year? I used the Duke official box, but I never looked at the NCAA.com box. This year, NCAA.com seems more accurate. Though for the official "record" I think the Duke SID uses the official Duke box. It's a conundrum.

For what it's worth, after three games last season we had 21 dunks (either two more or two less than this season). Marvin Bagley led the team with 7 (either 1 less or 3 less than Zion).

OK, I just went through it again, and the NCAA.com box does have 16 (though apparently there are issues with that accuracy). So my chart above should look like:

Official Duke box: 12 (Zion 5, Marques 4, RJ 1, Javin 1, Jack 1);

NCAA.com box: 16 (Zion 7, Marques 4, RJ 2, Javin 2, Jack 1).

Which gives us either 25 (NCAA) or 19 (Duke) for the season (3 games):

Zion 11 or 8;
Marques 6 or 5;
RJ 4 or 3;
Javin 2 or 1;
Cam 1;
Jack 1;

25 (NCAA) or 19 (Duke).

Especially in light of the above discussion that the real number is 14 (not 12 OR 16), I'm not sure how to handle this thread going forward. I'm sorry but I'm not willing to watch film of each game to confirm the play-by-play, and even if I was willing, since we're trying to chart Duke records here, I think we need to figure out what source Duke is using and stick with it. Not sure how to do that, however.

[Bluedog]

OK, I just went through it again, and the NCAA.com box does have 16 (though apparently there are issues with that accuracy). So my chart above should look like:

Official Duke box: 12 (Zion 5, Marques 4, RJ 1, Javin 1, Jack 1);

NCAA.com box: 16 (Zion 7, Marques 4, RJ 2, Javin 2, Jack 1).

Which gives us either 25 (NCAA) or 19 (Duke) for the season (3 games):

Zion 11 or 8;
Marques 6 or 5;
RJ 4 or 3;
Javin 2 or 1;
Cam 1;
Jack 1;

25 (NCAA) or 19 (Duke).

Especially in light of the above discussion that the real number is 14 (not 12 OR 16), I'm not sure how to handle this thread going forward. I'm sorry but I'm not willing to watch film of each game to confirm the play-by-play, and even if I was willing, since we're trying to chart Duke records here, I think we need to figure out what source Duke is using and stick with it. Not sure how to do that, however.

I think we contact Duke SID and ask them what's up and why the differences with the box scores. And why they can't get somebody to count dunks correctly given the correct answer is 14. And then point them to this thread. I'm serious. I, however, don't have enough power /knowledge of people who can do something about it, but I'm sure there are posters on this site that do.

[Neals384]

Having a contact at the Duke office would also help us let them know of other errors in the official play-by-play. In the Eastern Michigan game, the PBP fails to note that Jack White stared the 2nd half in place of Cam. At 16:57 of the 2nd half, the PBP shows DeLaurier and O'Connell subbing in, but only Bolden subbing out. White also subbed out.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

So stepping back for a second, and looking at it in a bigger context...there seems to be a pattern at Duke of self inflicted wounds...due to simple incompetence. Not among the big positions...not Cut or Coach K or what have you. It's in the more mundane, and easier to fill, positions.

First, it is not that hard to count dunks. Oh sure, a few a season might be iffy, but it's not that hard. For two services to be four dunks off in a single game is absurd. Some human is making inexcusable errors. We've seen this with security and crowd control at Wallace Wade, I heard about the SNAFU with student seating for some Carolina games in Cameron...and on and on. I was a vendor for Duke years ago, and I saw it there too. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but Duke is a world class university with a world class BB and FB coaches - but there are some odd failings with the nuts and bolts for some reason.

Coaches don't last long when they can't do the job. The same is not true with the underlings.

[DevilHorse]

I define a dunk as the pushing the ball down and through the rim from above it. I don’t think touching the rim is necessary. So I think that Bolden alley oop counts, but a finger roll wouldn’t because wIle the hand is above the rim the ball is not propelled downward. Not sure if there is an official definition but that’s mine, so it must be correct, it’s on the internet 😁.

Would any of the hands have to be within the cylinder, during the throw down, to make a difference as to a dunk vs. a shot down?

If I was a strong guy like Zion, I might perfect some non-touch throw down techniques to preserve the feeling in my fingers. I thought some of his two hand throw downs did just that, and evaded the cylinder. Definitely a dunk.

Larry
DevilHorse