ACC Football Week 7

[OldPhiKap]

But wouldn't that argument hold for Duke too? I mean, as a guest on this board I hesitate to characterize the mid-90s through early aughts Duke football program . . . but suffice to say it was significantly behind the success level of the basketball program. And yet, Duke has now managed to build a consistently good program. Not sure why the Heels couldn't do the same.

Yup. I love to dump on the Hump, but Mr. Hoo is correct.

(And good luck Saturday -- UVa sure has upgraded in the post-London era)

[PackMan97]

But wouldn't that argument hold for Duke too? I mean, as a guest on this board I hesitate to characterize the mid-90s through early aughts Duke football program . . . but suffice to say it was significantly behind the success level of the basketball program. And yet, Duke has now managed to build a consistently good program. Not sure why the Heels couldn't do the same.

-Jason "like all of you, I am happy to see him stick around, not because he sucks but because I worry they will get someone really good who will turn the program into a powerhouse" Evans

Yes, with the right hire Carolina good develop into a consistently good program. However, I don't worry that Carolina will ever turn into a powerhouse for all the reasons I gave.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

But wouldn't that argument hold for Duke too? I mean, as a guest on this board I hesitate to characterize the mid-90s through early aughts Duke football program . . . but suffice to say it was significantly behind the success level of the basketball program. And yet, Duke has now managed to build a consistently good program. Not sure why the Heels couldn't do the same.

Actually, given the size of the alumni base, the built in advantages all "University of" schools have, and overall budgets - Duke is beating the laws of demographics and economics every single time they have a better team than the Cheats in anything. That's what makes Coach K's rise and longevity of excellence so amazing. It's what makes Cutcliffe's progress amazing. Duke is defying gravity.

As for Carolina, there have been some excellent points made as to why they may never be a top flight football program. Another is attendance, which is not only hurt by the BB first mentality, but simply put, there aren't the roads to get a stadium full of people into and out of Kenan Stadium, and I don't think that situation is ever going to change.

[BandAlum83]

Actually, given the size of the alumni base, the built in advantages all "University of" schools have, and overall budgets - Duke is beating the laws of demographics and economics every single time they have a better team than the Cheats in anything. That's what makes Coach K's rise and longevity of excellence so amazing. It's what makes Cutcliffe's progress amazing. Duke is defying gravity.

I wish we could beat the laws of demographics and university size to fill the stadium with blue-wearing patrons each Saturday!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I wish we could beat the laws of demographics and university size to fill the stadium with blue-wearing patrons each Saturday!

The laws of demographics will never be beaten for any long period of time. It's why I wish they had figured out a way to make Wally Wade an intimate 30,000 seat stadium.

[sagegrouse]

Actually, given the size of the alumni base, the built in advantages all "University of" schools have, and overall budgets - Duke is beating the laws of demographics and economics every single time they have a better team than the Cheats in anything. That's what makes Coach K's rise and longevity of excellence so amazing. It's what makes Cutcliffe's progress amazing. Duke is defying gravity.

As for Carolina, there have been some excellent points made as to why they may never be a top flight football program. Another is attendance, which is not only hurt by the BB first mentality, but simply put, there aren't the roads to get a stadium full of people into and out of Kenan Stadium, and I don't think that situation is ever going to change.

I tend not to agree. Private schools in football are doing better than in the 1970's, when it looked like the powers were destined to be good ol' State U, Notre Dame, and Southern California. If we had foreseen a Power Five conference make-up of 64 + 1 teams, I would have been surprised to have 12 private schools in the mix -- and not necessarily at the bottom of the heap.

West to East:
Stanford
USC
TCU
Baylor
Northwestern
Notre Dame
Vanderbilt
Wake Forest
Miami
Duke
Syracuse
Boston College

[Tripping William]

I tend not to agree. Private schools in football are doing better than in the 1970's, when it looked like the powers were destined to be good ol' State U, Notre Dame, and Southern California. If we had foreseen a Power Five conference make-up of 64 + 1 teams, I would have been surprised to have 12 private schools in the mix -- and not necessarily at the bottom of the heap.

West to East:
Stanford
USC
TCU
Baylor
Northwestern
Notre Dame
Vanderbilt
Wake Forest
Miami
Duke
Syracuse
Boston College

And that doesn’t include BYU, whose football tradition (including the 1984 national championship and the 1990 Heisman Trophy winner) is better than many of those on this list.

[sagegrouse]

And that doesn’t include BYU, whose football tradition (including the 1984 national championship and the 1990 Heisman Trophy winner) is better than many of those on this list.

Agreed.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I tend not to agree. Private schools in football are doing better than in the 1970's, when it looked like the powers were destined to be good ol' State U, Notre Dame, and Southern California. If we had foreseen a Power Five conference make-up of 64 + 1 teams, I would have been surprised to have 12 private schools in the mix -- and not necessarily at the bottom of the heap.

West to East:
Stanford
USC
TCU
Baylor
Northwestern
Notre Dame
Vanderbilt
Wake Forest
Miami
Duke
Syracuse
Boston College

I don't know that you can say they're doing better today, but you are leaving out one important thing. I also mentioned the "University of" advantage, and as it happens, a handful of private schools actually have some of that University of cache...U of Southern Cal...U of Miami, both have a lot of "U of" advantage when they're winning. I also mentioned size of the University, and I believe USC is pretty big. USC is also uniquely iconic, and the exception that proves the rule.

As for being in the Power Five + 1 - the majority of those schools have long been in their respective conferences. In fact, a case can be made that the big money brought in by the massive state schools (as a percentage of the total TV packages) is helping smaller schools hang in there. There have been moves by their conferences to jettison Baylor and Vandy over the years...and big conferences did jettison Rice and some others.

[sagegrouse]

I don't know that you can say they're doing better today, but you are leaving out one important thing. I also mentioned the "University of" advantage, and as it happens, a handful of private schools actually have some of that University of cache...U of Southern Cal...U of Miami, both have a lot of "U of" advantage when they're winning. I also mentioned size of the University, and I believe USC is pretty big. USC is also uniquely iconic, and the exception that proves the rule.

As for being in the Power Five + 1 - the majority of those schools have long been in their respective conferences. In fact, a case can be made that the big money brought in by the massive state schools (as a percentage of the total TV packages) is helping smaller schools hang in there. There have been moves by their conferences to jettison Baylor and Vandy over the years...and big conferences did jettison Rice and some others.

As you appreciate, I did a carve-out for Notre Dame, with their nationwide fan base, and SC, with 19.000 undergraduates and a total enrollment above 40,000, is a different beast entirely.

Well, the main event was when Texas and Texas A&M, in league with Oklahoma U, decided the Southwest Conference was, well, passe. That was in 1994, when the two schools plus Baylor and Texas Tech announced they were leaving to join the Big Eight and form a new conference. This was also driven by some degree of affinity between Texas and U. of Oklahoma -- they both perceived they had lots of market sway, which was probably true. That put Rice (my grad school), TCU and SMU (death camp survivor) out of business. TCU has rallied and was invited to join the Big 12 (which still has only ten members); SMU less so, and Rice is consigned to Conference USA with schools that are definitely not its peers, at least academically.

I have often thought that Duke's quasi-deemphasis of football in the mid-to-late 1960's was due to the absence of any role models of private schools, aside from ND and USC, doing well at football. IMHO (where the H took a redshirt year and never came back), if Jim Plunkett had come along a few years earlier, Duke would have seen a Stanford team winning the Rose Bowl in 1971 and 1972 as a good role model. But, by then the die was cast. We had put restrictions on football recruiting, lost Coach Murray, and recruited an Ivy League coach with a losing record to lead the legendary BLUE DEVILS.