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  1. #281
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    I know that we are not the only ones who deal with this but the change (driven by TV) to not announcing game times until a few weeks before does not help. It is helpful to have a sense of when a game is going to be so as to lock in the schedule - if you know in August that the game in early November is at 3:30 and you would consider going, you would be sure not to schedule Johnny's birthday party at that time. But since you aren't sure, you just have to pick a time and hope for the best.

    As someone who would consider flying down from NY for games, this is also an issue. I prefer to book flights at least a few weeks ahead of time. If I know it is a late game on Saturday, I can fly down Saturday morning. But if it is a noon game, that isn't an easy option, and leaving Friday night isn't always an option. So I just don't bother, but if I knew well ahead of time that the game was early on Saturday, I might make more of an effort to adjust my life and fly down Friday night. I think the same applies for people driving in from DC, Atlanta, and other points in between.

  2. #282
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by devilirium View Post
    Re: the noon start times. How many of those have been in September in the last 10 years? There's some exaggeration there. Certainly the Wake and the Baylor games come to mind as early starts, but I would bet that most of the 1 pm or noon start times were in October and fans probably went the other way--it's too cold. Or they've conflated excessive heat with the start time--eg the West Point opener last year started at 6 pm, but reading message boards one would think that we were watching from Death Valley, CA. Certainly the lack of a local fanbase and extensive TV coverage have impacted Wade attendance, but I think these last few generations of Duke fans are a bit SOFT --with memories and heat tolerance, and ultimately the culture just hasn't changed as much as we would've liked. Cut has done a great job with changing the culture inside the program, but I think he probably gave up thinking that fan apathy would reverse itself after the A&M game. To me, that could've been the tipping point to increase attendance, but alas it really hasn't.
    I'm not going to bother to look them up, but I can tell you in no uncertain terms that there have been plenty of noon/1pm games* in September during the last ten years, and I've sat through many of them. So many in fact that after 30 years of sitting on the East side, we migrated westward last year. It is NOT an exaggeration...Since TV became THE driving force, far fewer September night games have been scheduled (I enjoyed those)...I had many long halftime conversations with the ambulance crew who also hung out at halftime in the shelter of the small cluster of trees on the East side (now cut down, of course) and they duly noted how painful those games could be. They also noted that the sunken bowl shape of the stadium tended to focus the heat.

    Furthermore, I've searched my brain as best I can, and can't remember ANY October game being "too cold."

    p.s. as someone who flies 800 miles to attend most home games, I know first hand how tight the schedule is to get me into WW by noon or noon-thirty...and we've had to hustle on many, many occasions to get in the stadium by kickoff.

  3. #283
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    NC
    My horse is dead, but I want to give him one last beating.

    Why is the football game experience less than enthralling? Because there ain't nobody there. The stadium is virtually empty if the truth is told.

    According to Duke, Duke spends $26M a year on the football program. Duke spends $108M on its entire athletic program.

    If it is assumed that Duke sells 15000 football tickets for every home game at an average price of $20/per (which I think is generous as to numbers sold and average price), Duke has total ticket sales of $1.8M per year (based on six home games). Tickets sold do not include giveaways to veterans, first responders, and canned corn admittees.

    Meaning, that tickets sales are 7% of the football program's budget and 2% of the athletic program's budget.

    Make admission free. Fill the stadium (eventually) for every game. Inculcate (over time) fiercely loyal fans. Blow up the atmosphere. Motivate recruits.

    Would larger concession sales, higher rankings, and more frequent and larger TV contracts equal or exceed the puny 7.0% loss of ticket revenues? It would be a bonus if it did but hardly missed if it did not.

    Let's think way outside of the box in a time when even many large state schools are experiencing apathetic fan support at football games.


    http://www.goduke.com/attachments1/f...DB_OEM_ID=4200

  4. #284
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    ^ with TV ruling the roost, I've said for some time it might be worthwhile to pay people to attend, like happens at some NYC funerals...they literally give away tickets on many occasions (e.g. to employees) or deeply discount them, and still we struggle. I'm being somewhat facetious, but if we can't win (which DOES get people to attend) might as well try another route.

    https://www.cracked.com/personal-exp...es-my-job.html

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    I have never went to the concession stand to buy water and been told there is none available to buy. Other people's experience may differ.
    I recall a noon, very hot game mabe 10-12 years ago, not sure against - maybe Navy? Lots of people got sick and needed help and I believe Duke ran out of water to sale. I clearly recall wife feeling a little weasy and we moved to a tree inside the fence nearest Cameron. A medic was very helpful and found water. What I found interesting; if we went outside the gates to try to find water, we were told we couldn’t re-enter.

    Of course, my recall isn’t great probably because my brain was fried from that game. 😄

  6. #286
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by arnie View Post
    I recall a noon, very hot game mabe 10-12 years ago, not sure against - maybe Navy? Lots of people got sick and needed help and I believe Duke ran out of water to sale. I clearly recall wife feeling a little weasy and we moved to a tree inside the fence nearest Cameron. A medic was very helpful and found water. What I found interesting; if we went outside the gates to try to find water, we were told we couldn’t re-enter.

    Of course, my recall isn’t great probably because my brain was fried from that game. 😄
    I think your recollection was correct, the stifling Navy game.

  7. #287
    Yeah, the hand-wringing over attendance is truly legit in my mind. It upsets me when I tune into a Duke game on Saturday and the crowd noise is less than at most high school games. The fact that the crowd shots on network highlight the empty seats is embarrassing.
    I don't know how these factors translate to recruiting, but it can't help anything at all.

  8. #288
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Triangle, NC
    This is a huge factor for me also, and I suspect MANY fans. I need to be able to plan my weekends well in advance. It always perplexes me that football game times are not determined until 2-3 weeks out, but we know the game times of the entire college basketball schedule through March from the minute it is released (with only a few minor changes here and there). Why can't college football do the same? I would be much more likely to purchase tickets if I knew WHEN the game would be played.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    I know that we are not the only ones who deal with this but the change (driven by TV) to not announcing game times until a few weeks before does not help. It is helpful to have a sense of when a game is going to be so as to lock in the schedule - if you know in August that the game in early November is at 3:30 and you would consider going, you would be sure not to schedule Johnny's birthday party at that time. But since you aren't sure, you just have to pick a time and hope for the best.

    As someone who would consider flying down from NY for games, this is also an issue. I prefer to book flights at least a few weeks ahead of time. If I know it is a late game on Saturday, I can fly down Saturday morning. But if it is a noon game, that isn't an easy option, and leaving Friday night isn't always an option. So I just don't bother, but if I knew well ahead of time that the game was early on Saturday, I might make more of an effort to adjust my life and fly down Friday night. I think the same applies for people driving in from DC, Atlanta, and other points in between.
    cbarry
    Morrisville, NC
    Duke '92

  9. #289
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by cbarry View Post
    This is a huge factor for me also, and I suspect MANY fans. I need to be able to plan my weekends well in advance. It always perplexes me that football game times are not determined until 2-3 weeks out, but we know the game times of the entire college basketball schedule through March from the minute it is released (with only a few minor changes here and there). Why can't college football do the same? I would be much more likely to purchase tickets if I knew WHEN the game would be played.
    Live attendance no longer drives the boat. Looking after fans who actually want to come to the games is way down the pecking order in game scheduling. Fans in attendance are just icing on the cake. Just give away the tickets. At least that way negligently irritating supporters will somewhat diminish in scope.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Yeah, the hand-wringing over attendance is truly legit in my mind. It upsets me when I tune into a Duke game on Saturday and the crowd noise is less than at most high school games. The fact that the crowd shots on network highlight the empty seats is embarrassing.
    I don't know how these factors translate to recruiting, but it can't help anything at all.
    Agreed...and the negative impact on recruiting has to be MASSIVE....just like the atmosphere in Cameron is in a positive way for basketball. Overcoming the albatross that is Wally Wade is one of the more spectacular achievements by Cut. But it puts a low ceiling on where Duke football can ever go.
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

  11. #291
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by cbarry View Post
    This is a huge factor for me also, and I suspect MANY fans. I need to be able to plan my weekends well in advance. It always perplexes me that football game times are not determined until 2-3 weeks out, but we know the game times of the entire college basketball schedule through March from the minute it is released (with only a few minor changes here and there). Why can't college football do the same? I would be much more likely to purchase tickets if I knew WHEN the game would be played.
    Yeah, regrettably I just had to make some air reservations for games and had to assume I needed to be there for noon games...ack....

  12. #292
    Zion bobblehead !

  13. #293
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    Yeah, regrettably I just had to make some air reservations for games and had to assume I needed to be there for noon games...ack...
    I'm sure the hotels in Durham are big fans of this uncertainty...

  14. #294
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Chicago suburbs
    Add me to the list of folks who attend fewer college football games because The game times are not known in advance.

    I am an alum of both Duke and Michigan who has lived in Northwestern’s backyard for 25 years.

    I would plan on attending twice as many games annually if I knew in August when the games from those three schools would kickoff.

    My point is that the unknown kickoff impacts attendance for local games (Northwestern) because I don’t know in advance if it conflicts with family commitments. Granted if my “local” team was Duke or Michigan I would be more likely to buy some season ticket package, but if I knew kickoff times I advance I could work to schedule other commitments around the game.

    Unknown kickoff times reduce the Michigan games I attend because “Noon” games start at 11:00 my time and with a 4+ hour drive. So do I need a hotel for Friday night or Saturday night.

    More distant travel to a Duke game essentially requires both a Friday and Saturday hotel for me anyway. Adding airfare costs as well makes it pretty expensive just for the football game so I try to plan other gatherings around the game. That is harder to do if you don’t know when the game will take place.

    I know that revenue from TV contracts at the conference level are the reason. It does seem crazy that TV can’t decide times further in advance.

    End of rant.

  15. #295
    Here's my Q: let's say we knew -- right now (early August) -- that some random October Saturday had UVa/GT at noon; FSU/BC at 3:30; and L'ville/Mia at 7 pm. By the time the season shakes out, one of those match-ups *might* be marquee given the teams' respective records.

    How many marginal viewers are gained by moving the marquee game to the slot that might change viewership?

    My guess is not a lot -- that is, CFB fans are CFB fans and will find the marquee game. And those who are not CFB fans won't.

    But I guess the folks who do this for a living believe the bottom line is affected and so we have what we have.

  16. #296
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Reilly View Post
    Here's my Q: let's say we knew -- right now (early August) -- that some random October Saturday had UVa/GT at noon; FSU/BC at 3:30; and L'ville/Mia at 7 pm. By the time the season shakes out, one of those match-ups *might* be marquee given the teams' respective records.

    How many marginal viewers are gained by moving the marquee game to the slot that might change viewership?

    My guess is not a lot -- that is, CFB fans are CFB fans and will find the marquee game. And those who are not CFB fans won't.

    But I guess the folks who do this for a living believe the bottom line is affected and so we have what we have.
    The networks seem to invest a ton of mental energy waiting until the last second to try to create the optimal schedule, holding the casual fan hostage. Then, at the end of the day, they all end up having the top games going head-to-head in the 8 pm ET Saturday night window, which doesn't make any sense to me. I guess it is a kind of game theory competition - all networks want that window, but none are willing to admit that they aren't offering the top game so they all compete for that time slot, rather than conceding it.

    All that being said, though I love Duke football and think that Coach Cut has done an incredible job taking the program to places it hasn't been in ages, Duke football games are not drawing a lot of eyeballs on TV, regardless of who we are playing, so just tell us when we are playing so that we can move on with our lives.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    I'm not going to bother to look them up, but I can tell you in no uncertain terms that there have been plenty of noon/1pm games* in September during the last ten years, and I've sat through many of them. So many in fact that after 30 years of sitting on the East side, we migrated westward last year. It is NOT an exaggeration...Since TV became THE driving force, far fewer September night games have been scheduled (I enjoyed those)...I had many long halftime conversations with the ambulance crew who also hung out at halftime in the shelter of the small cluster of trees on the East side (now cut down, of course) and they duly noted how painful those games could be. They also noted that the sunken bowl shape of the stadium tended to focus the heat.

    Furthermore, I've searched my brain as best I can, and can't remember ANY October game being "too cold."

    p.s. as someone who flies 800 miles to attend most home games, I know first hand how tight the schedule is to get me into WW by noon or noon-thirty...and we've had to hustle on many, many occasions to get in the stadium by kickoff.

    I applaud your commitment to getting to the Wade (no sarcasm intended). That's awesome. This may be worth researching.

  18. #298
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by devilirium View Post
    I applaud your commitment to getting to the Wade (no sarcasm intended). That's awesome. This may be worth researching.
    yes, it's a good conversation...for some reason i've been doing this with a close friend since 1985, so the days in blistering heat are pretty fresh in my mind...a few decades ago, almost all Sept. games were played in the evening, and heat wasn't a factor, then TV seized control.

  19. #299
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    I'm sure the hotels in Durham are big fans of this uncertainty...
    There is at least one silver lining: with the massive growth of Research Triangle Park, there are now tons of hotels in that area that are filled during the week (at $200+ per night for many of them) that offer
    steep discounts on fridays and saturdays, so we take advantage of that...when I traveled down to RTP in the 1980s on business, there was ONE (1) hotel in the entire RTP, Governor's Inn...I think they were given an exclusive arrangement for some time...now there must be 100 or so in the general area, and every year they seem to build another bunch.

    If we get surprised by an evening game in our planning this year, we'll just have to spend a few hours in Duke Forest, which isn't the worst thing...

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    yes, it's a good conversation...for some reason i've been doing this with a close friend since 1985, so the days in blistering heat are pretty fresh in my mind...a few decades ago, almost all Sept. games were played in the evening, and heat wasn't a factor, then TV seized control.
    A few decades ago Duke didn’t even have the lights to play at night!

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