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  1. #881
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Serious question: assuming they're all at Duke next year, is there any chance that Griffin, Banchero, Baldwin, and Mark Williams will ever all be on the court at the same time?
    I think Coach K will experiment with it some early in the season against low-grade competition, but ultimately we'll settle on Griffin, Baldwin (knock on wood), and Banchero being the 3 thru 5 positionally. (I do think Banchero will play some 4 even against high-grade competition, though).

    Of course, the backcourt picture is so unsettled right now, making the monster lineup seem more possible. But once we know that -- for example -- JGold and Steward return, Keels is a Duke commit, and Duke lands one more guard from the 2021 class or perhaps a grad transfer, then the monster lineup will seem more unlikely.

  2. #882
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Serious question: assuming they're all at Duke next year, is there any chance that Griffin, Banchero, Baldwin, and Mark Williams will ever all be on the court at the same time?
    I guess the first step is securing the services of Baldwin. Not sure on that probability, but it seems high.

    If we assume he signs on, I think we'll see 3 of the 4 together a lot next year. But I suspect the quartet would rarely see the floor together. It would involve 3 of the 4 playing down a position (at the college level at least; at the NBA level they would align positionally a bit more), something Coach K has generally been loathe to do.

    I suspect it would happen on rare circumstances, but my guess would be that we would mainly see "just" 3 on the court together, with a pair of guards joining them.

  3. #883
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Getting Keels would be no small thing, and that's looking pretty good right now.

  4. #884
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    I think Coach K will experiment with it some early in the season against low-grade competition, but ultimately we'll settle on Griffin, Baldwin (knock on wood), and Banchero being the 3 thru 5 positionally. (I do think Banchero will play some 4 even against high-grade competition, though).

    Of course, the backcourt picture is so unsettled right now, making the monster lineup seem more possible. But once we know that -- for example -- JGold and Steward return, Keels is a Duke commit, and Duke lands one more guard from the 2021 class or perhaps a grad transfer, then the monster lineup will seem more unlikely.
    Coach K is going to have his best players out on the court at some point, so I expect that those 4 plus a more traditional guard like Jeremy Roach or DJ Steward will be on the court together. This season, I expect to see a frontcourt of Wendell Moore, Jalen Johnson, and Matthew Hurt because those are probably the three best players on the team. That might not be a great rebounding or rim protecting frontcourt, but they give Duke the biggest advantage.

    What I find interesting about last season and what appears to be the trajectory this season is a deeper bench. Is that because the dropoff between the 6th and 8th or 9th man is not as severe as in years past? Is it because Coach K has had a change of mindset? Is it just a temporary thing? I don't know the answer to these questions. What I do know and deeply admire about Coach K is that he has been willing to change over the course of his long, long career. Plenty of coaches that have had success entrench themselves within their habits and structures. They become system guys as the game moves on in a different direction. One thing that stands out about Coach K is his desire to continually grow and adapt. The teams look very different from year to year with a few key elements and a strong culture to hold it all together. It's quite remarkable.

  5. #885
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva View Post
    Coach K is going to have his best players out on the court at some point, so I expect that those 4 plus a more traditional guard like Jeremy Roach or DJ Steward will be on the court together. This season, I expect to see a frontcourt of Wendell Moore, Jalen Johnson, and Matthew Hurt because those are probably the three best players on the team. That might not be a great rebounding or rim protecting frontcourt, but they give Duke the biggest advantage.
    Coach K definitely likes to put his best players on the floor together as much as possible. But he has very rarely played anyone down a position, let alone 3 guys down a position. When in doubt, it has been pretty safe to assume that he's more likely to play guys UP a position rather than down. So while it's possible that those 4 mentioned above will see the court together at some point, it seems unlikely to be a staple of the rotation. That foursome would be relatively light on ballhandling and quickness, which would potentially be problematic on both ends of the floor.

    Any one of those 3 could play down a position and be fine. Asking all 3 to do so seems like a problematic strategy. Hence the idea that 3 of the 4 could be on the floor together at any time (and perhaps most of the time), but less likely to be all 4 together.

    If any two of Roach, Goldwire, Steward, and Keels are there, I would expect them to start. That alone would put a huge crimp into the opportunity for that Griffin/Baldwin/Banchero/Williams quartet to share the floor.

    That said, this is all probably worth tabling until/if we actually sign Baldwin.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva View Post
    What I find interesting about last season and what appears to be the trajectory this season is a deeper bench. Is that because the dropoff between the 6th and 8th or 9th man is not as severe as in years past? Is it because Coach K has had a change of mindset? Is it just a temporary thing? I don't know the answer to these questions. What I do know and deeply admire about Coach K is that he has been willing to change over the course of his long, long career. Plenty of coaches that have had success entrench themselves within their habits and structures. They become system guys as the game moves on in a different direction. One thing that stands out about Coach K is his desire to continually grow and adapt. The teams look very different from year to year with a few key elements and a strong culture to hold it all together. It's quite remarkable.
    To be fair, Coach K's changes have been somewhat begrudging over time. For a VERY long time, he didn't adapt. The really impressive thing is that he has adapted so much so late in his career. But it's been more the last 5-10 years that we've seen his strategies change. Going to a zone in the 2017-18 season and going to a deeper rotation last year (though it still remains to be seen if that was going to sustain last year as we didn't get to the tournaments) are relatively new things, while fully embracing the one-and-done/very-early-entry is new for him to this past decade.

    I agree that it will be very interesting to see how this year plays out. There is an opportunity for the 9-man rotation to stick, especially if Tape/Williams/Coleman don't separate themselves at C. Very much looking forward to seeing how this season plays out.

  6. #886
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva View Post
    Coach K is going to have his best players out on the court at some point, so I expect that those 4 plus a more traditional guard like Jeremy Roach or DJ Steward will be on the court together. This season, I expect to see a frontcourt of Wendell Moore, Jalen Johnson, and Matthew Hurt because those are probably the three best players on the team. That might not be a great rebounding or rim protecting frontcourt, but they give Duke the biggest advantage.
    Well, I suspect we'll have two guards on the team that are better than Williams, so even under the "5 best players" rule (if it exists), I don't think the monster lineup will be the main lineup. Additionally, I think CDu put it very well that we may see Duke downshift at one position but it's tough to imagine we'll do it at three spots. While I think Griffin can play anywhere (and so I'm not concerned if he's guarding the 2), I would be worried about Baldwin at the 3 and Banchero at the 4 full-time.

  7. #887
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Coach K definitely likes to put his best players on the floor together as much as possible. But he has very rarely played anyone down a position, let alone 3 guys down a position. When in doubt, it has been pretty safe to assume that he's more likely to play guys UP a position rather than down. So while it's possible that those 4 mentioned above will see the court together at some point, it seems unlikely to be a staple of the rotation. That foursome would be relatively light on ballhandling and quickness, which would potentially be problematic on both ends of the floor.

    Any one of those 3 could play down a position and be fine. Asking all 3 to do so seems like a problematic strategy. Hence the idea that 3 of the 4 could be on the floor together at any time (and perhaps most of the time), but less likely to be all 4 together.

    If any two of Roach, Goldwire, Steward, and Keels are there, I would expect them to start. That alone would put a huge crimp into the opportunity for that Griffin/Baldwin/Banchero/Williams quartet to share the floor.

    That said, this is all probably worth tabling until/if we actually sign Baldwin.



    To be fair, Coach K's changes have been somewhat begrudging over time. For a VERY long time, he didn't adapt. The really impressive thing is that he has adapted so much so late in his career. But it's been more the last 5-10 years that we've seen his strategies change. Going to a zone in the 2017-18 season and going to a deeper rotation last year (though it still remains to be seen if that was going to sustain last year as we didn't get to the tournaments) are relatively new things, while fully embracing the one-and-done/very-early-entry is new for him to this past decade.

    I agree that it will be very interesting to see how this year plays out. There is an opportunity for the 9-man rotation to stick, especially if Tape/Williams/Coleman don't separate themselves at C. Very much looking forward to seeing how this season plays out.
    I see where you're coming from. However, I don't think Banchero playing the 4 or Baldwin playing the 3 are playing down a position. Banchero is a F/C while Baldwin can play either forward position (although I have more concern about his defense on the wings, but that's another issue). Frankly, I think Griffin is more of a big guard/wing like RJ Barrett, Wendell Moore, or Gary Trent than a true forward like Jayson Tatum or Brandon Ingram. He'd be the only one playing down in that scenario and only sort of.

  8. #888
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva View Post
    I see where you're coming from. However, I don't think Banchero playing the 4 or Baldwin playing the 3 are playing down a position. Banchero is a F/C while Baldwin can play either forward position (although I have more concern about his defense on the wings, but that's another issue). Frankly, I think Griffin is more of a big guard/wing like RJ Barrett, Wendell Moore, or Gary Trent than a true forward like Jayson Tatum or Brandon Ingram. He'd be the only one playing down in that scenario and only sort of.
    I see it differently. I think of the three, Baldwin at the 3 might be the most out of position, followed somewhat closely by Banchero at the 4. I think Griffin would be the one who is most suitable to playing the 2 (as Troublemaker said, I think he would be fine playing pretty much anywhere on the court). You allude to the defensive concerns, but that's the entire point. Baldwin playing the 3 (or Banchero playing the 4, which in college is typically a perimeter-oriented position) is a problem defensively. And that's generally a non-starter for Coach K: if you can't defend the position you're asked to play, you aren't going to be played there unless there isn't an alternative. The trio MIGHT be able to play the 2/3/4 offensively given that Baldwin and Griffin can shoot, but it would be a big problem on the defensive end. And that's ignoring that a Banchero/Williams pairing probably isn't optimal offensively either in terms of floor spacing.

    If we somehow don't have two of the four guards mentioned, then maybe Coach K is forced to play that big lineup. But I suspect we'll have at least two more guards (probably 3), and as such I suspect Coach K will opt for the better positional alignment defensively.

  9. #889
    Quote Originally Posted by weezie View Post
    Yes indeed. And again, yes indeed. Holmgren was eye opening.
    I know this was addressed somewhere (likely on this thread) but I can't seem to find it. Why didn't we pursue Holmgren more?

  10. #890
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by nmduke2001 View Post
    I know this was addressed somewhere (likely on this thread) but I can't seem to find it. Why didn't we pursue Holmgren more?
    Mutual disinterest, from what I can tell. We already got Paolo and have been recruiting Baldwin really hard (and are considered the favorite), and we'll also likely have Mark Williams and Henry Coleman on the roster. Griffin might also see some time at the 4, too. (Certainly he'd have the size and chops to play there).

    Our bigs situation looks fantastic.

    (I know the reply might/will be that Holmgrem can play with those guys in some fantasy monster-sized lineup, but we have to be realistic).

  11. #891
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    Mutual disinterest, from what I can tell. We already got Paolo and have been recruiting Baldwin really hard (and are considered the favorite), and we'll also likely have Mark Williams and Henry Coleman on the roster. Griffin might also see some time at the 4, too. (Certainly he'd have the size and chops to play there).

    Our bigs situation looks fantastic.

    (I know the reply might/will be that Holmgrem can play with those guys in some fantasy monster-sized lineup, but we have to be realistic).
    Makes sense. Thanks for the response. I watched Holmgren last night. I was really impressed with how well he defends the basket. Some of those big but skinny kids shy away from defending the rim. Holmgren seems to really enjoy blocking shots. Sort of reminds me of a more skilled Marcus Camby.

  12. #892
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    By my recollection, we stopped recruiting Holmgren prior to Mark Williams committing. Recall that we were going after Walker Kessler really hard and all indications were that we would land him, and only after he made the worst decision of his life, er... committed to UNC did we secure a commitment from Williams. But Holmgren has been off our radar for quite some time.

  13. #893
    Has Duke shown any interest in Will Baker ? He has asked to be placed in the transfer portal. He is a 6'10"
    freshman center who committed to Texas. IIRC Duke showed a little interest in him.

  14. #894
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by Pghdukie View Post
    Has Duke shown any interest in Will Baker ? He has asked to be placed in the transfer portal. He is a 6'10"
    freshman center who committed to Texas. IIRC Duke showed a little interest in him.
    What's he good at? As a freshman, he shot 15.4% from 3 and 43.3% from 2.

    I like our crop of big men, most of whom aren't going pro next year.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  15. #895

    Paolo Banchero Update

    Krysten Peek of Rivals has a short (~5 minute) interview with Duke commit Paolo Banchero recently. The promising young man provides an update on his current efforts, how he made the decision to commit to the Blue Devils, and who else he is courting to join him and AJ Griffin next season. There are a couple of highlights here:

    • Banchero says he's grown to 6'10" without shoes and 250 lbs
    • While he did not visit Duke over the summer, he felt comfortable committing and did so over Zoom.
    • He is focusing his pitch on Patrick Baldwin and Trevor Keels
    • He looks forward to playing against Kentucky, at MSU, and the game at UNC


    Full interview: https://basketballrecruiting.rivals...paolo-banchero

  16. #896
    While Duke was struggling to score against MSU last night, top target Patrick Baldwin, Jr. had no problem getting the ball in the hoop against Wisconsin Wauwatosa East High School. Baldwin dropped 43 points in the matchup against Class of 2022 SF Leon Bond. 'Tosa East prevailed in the end, but Baldwin put on a show.


  17. #897
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Milwaukee, WI
    After his dazzling performance to kick off his senior season, Patrick Baldwin appears to have suffered a left leg injury and was helped out of the gym during tonight’s game while bearing no weight on his left leg.

  18. #898
    Quote Originally Posted by mstein34 View Post
    After his dazzling performance to kick off his senior season, Patrick Baldwin appears to have suffered a left leg injury and was helped out of the gym during tonight’s game while bearing no weight on his left leg.
    (Insert obligatory “he’s a perfect Duke fit with the leg injury” note)

    Hope it’s not too serious!

  19. #899
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieTiger View Post
    (Insert obligatory “he’s a perfect Duke fit with the leg injury” note)

    Hope it’s not too serious!
    Sounds like it is unfortunately. More like Klay Thompson than Jalen Suggs with the injury.

  20. #900
    Quote Originally Posted by mstein34 View Post
    After his dazzling performance to kick off his senior season, Patrick Baldwin appears to have suffered a left leg injury and was helped out of the gym during tonight’s game while bearing no weight on his left leg.
    Clearly, he needs the orthopedic specialists at DUMC nearby for his collegiate career.

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