Lebron GOAT Thread

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Since it seems to be taking over many threads, I will try and consolidate here.

What is your take on James?

[Billy Dat]

For those interested, Zach Lowe and Howard Beck have a good discussion on this topic a few days ago.
http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play/_...3803672&s=espn

I still put Jordan #1 but not by much. One point Beck makes on the pod is that a primary difference between the 2 is the 2011 Finals when Lebron's favored Heat lost and he was awful. Jordan never had a no show like that.

Lebron is still building his resume, but, for now, I've still got MJ.

[WillJ]

Are we allowed to consider the facts that a) Jordan's a jerk and Lebron is not and b) Jordan went to UNC. I could see how people's take on point a could vary, but point b is idispositive.

[brevity]

You missed an option: adults on the Internet are a bunch of Ricky Bobbys who desperately need a violent beating until they can understand that not everything is binary.

rickybobby.jpg

Even the guy who originally said that came around.

Ricky Bobby: Wait, Dad. Don't you remember the time you told me "If you ain't first, you're last"?

Reese Bobby: Huh? What are you talking about, Son?

Ricky Bobby: That day at school.

Reese Bobby: Oh hell, Son, I was high that day. That doesn't make any sense at all, you can be second, third, fourth... hell you can even be fifth.

Ricky Bobby: What? I've lived my whole life by that!

[Newton_14]

I'm 52 yrs old for reference... David Thompson is still the greatest College Player I have ever seen, and Michael Jordan is still the greatest NBA Player I have ever seen. I will call you when something changes MD... LOL

[camion]

I don't think these are mutually exclusive choices.

I'll take 1, 2 and 4.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I feel like LBJ is the most talented and physical player in basketball history. I don't really care much about the outcome of this poll, but since LBJ talk seems to be the NBA version of "how many players will be in Ks rotation," or "debate the one and done rule," I thought I might institute a mercy thread to consolidate this discussion.

I imagine it will work about as well as the other consolidation threads, ie not at all.

[CDu]

For those interested, Zach Lowe and Howard Beck have a good discussion on this topic a few days ago.
http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play/_...3803672&s=espn

I still put Jordan #1 but not by much. One point Beck makes on the pod is that a primary difference between the 2 is the 2011 Finals when Lebron's favored Heat lost and he was awful. Jordan never had a no show like that.

Lebron is still building his resume, but, for now, I've still got MJ.

The counter is that Jordan’s teams never upset the favorite in his career. Whenever they were expected to lose, they lost. Jordan didn’t lose in the Finals when his team was as good or better than his opponents. But he never made his teammates better to overcome a better opponent.

LeBron’s teams did occasionally lose to lesser teams. But he also took lesser teams to upsets to reach the Finals twice, and even won a title with a lesser team.

That is part of the problem with this discussion. Folks ignore the seasons in which Jordan’s teams didn’t do well enough when they could have (1990, 1995), and penalize LeBron for some of the teams that made the Finals but either shouldn’t have (his first Finals and arguably this year) or didn’t have a chance in the Finals (his first, 2015, 2017, 2018).

[Neals384]

He may end up as the GOAT, but I think his bench demeanor after JRs screwup has to count against him. Sure JR is an idiot. But there was still OT, the game was not over. You gotta support your teammate, especially after a massive screwup.

LBJ has the whole offseason to rejoice in the hope that JR will never again be his teammate.

[kshepinthehouse]

He may end up as the GOAT, but I think his bench demeanor after JRs screwup has to count against him. Sure JR is an idiot. But there was still OT, the game was not over. You gotta support your teammate, especially after a massive screwup.

LBJ has the whole offseason to rejoice in the hope that JR will never again be his teammate.

He quit at the end of overtime and quit during game 4. Then he complains about a “broken” hand. I agree with a previous poster who said Jordan probably wins based on defense and intangibles. It may have slipped my memory but I just can’t recall a time where it felt like Jordan quit. His competitive desire is unparalleled and something that sets him apart over Lebron. For the record, I’m not a fan of either.

[cakerace]

There's nothing wrong with LeBron James that four years at Duke wouldn't have cured...

[ice-9]

Are Finals appearances a relevant metric in discussion of Greatest Of All Time?

For Hall of Fame, sure, but GOAT?

Does anyone really believe that if the Cavs were in the West, they would have made all these Finals?

When Conferences are so unbalanced, Finals is a relatively arbitrary metric.

LeBron may be the most gifted basketball player of all time, but until he wins at least two or three more NBA championships, he's not the GOAT.

Similarly, our 99 team may be the most talented or the most dominant, but not winning the tournament precludes it from any GOAT Duke team discussion.

[kshepinthehouse]

Are Finals appearances a relevant metric in discussion of Greatest Of All Time?

For Hall of Fame, sure, but GOAT?

Does anyone really believe that if the Cavs were in the West, they would have made all these Finals?

When Conferences are so unbalanced, Finals is a relatively arbitrary metric.

LeBron may be the most gifted basketball player of all time, but until he wins at least two or three more NBA championships, he's not the GOAT.

Similarly, our 99 team may be the most talented or the most dominant, but not winning the tournament precludes it from any GOAT Duke team discussion.

The NBA has mulled the idea of ranking teams 1/16 in the playoffs and doing away with the East vs West thing. Would have made for some amazing finals in the last few years instead of the butt kicking the East (Cavs) keep taking.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Are Finals appearances a relevant metric in discussion of Greatest Of All Time?

For Hall of Fame, sure, but GOAT?

Does anyone really believe that if the Cavs were in the West, they would have made all these Finals?

When Conferences are so unbalanced, Finals is a relatively arbitrary metric.

LeBron may be the most gifted basketball player of all time, but until he wins at least two or three more NBA championships, he's not the GOAT.

Similarly, our 99 team may be the most talented or the most dominant, but not winning the tournament precludes it from any GOAT Duke team discussion.

You make some good points, but I think you have a bit of a mis-application of analogy. You are right, the 99 team cannot be Duke's GOAT because they did not, as a team, achieve greatness. But to analogize that to an individual player - yet measure by team accomplishments - simply does not work. It's not totally invalid, but it is not a one to one analogy.

To take it a step further, when the teams that LeBron were on lost LeBron, those teams were terrible. When MJ left Chicago, they were still PDG team.

[duke4ever19]

If by "greatest" you mean, "Who, at some point, played basketball at a level unequalled by any other player in league history?" then I'd go with LeBron. His years in Miami were incredible personal displays of dominance in virtually ever phase of the game.

If by "greatest" you mean, "Who is the best synthesis of the following: Skill, championships, MVP's, Defensive/Offensive awards, career records, a unique/iconic style of play etc. then the answer IMO is rather obvious . . it's Kareem.

Like I said before, in Kareem's case, people have this odd tendency to penalize him for playing so long. I actually find this to be one of Kareem's major selling points in the GOAT debates. He took care of his body and was willing to adapt from being THE dominant individual force on his team (and arguably in the league) and become a key player on a team that won championships.

Virtually every piece of hardware Jordan earned, Kareem has equalled him and even surpassed him in compiling. Based strictly on career accomplishments, Kareem bests Jordan.

LeBron is the only player close to threatening Kareem's points-in-a-career record. That's rather remarkable.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

If by "greatest" you mean, "Who, at some point, played basketball at a level unequalled by any other player in league history?" then I'd go with LeBron. His years in Miami were incredible personal displays of dominance in virtually ever phase of the game.

If by "greatest" you mean, "Who is the best synthesis of the following: Skill, championships, MVP's, Defensive/Offensive awards, career records, a unique/iconic style of play etc. then the answer IMO is rather obvious . . it's Kareem.

Like I said before, in Kareem's case, people have this odd tendency to penalize him for playing so long. I actually find this to be one of Kareem's major selling points in the GOAT debates. He took care of his body and was willing to adapt from being THE dominant individual force on his team (and arguably in the league) and become a key player on a team that won championships.

Virtually every piece of hardware Jordan earned, Kareem has equalled him and even surpassed him in compiling. Based strictly on career accomplishments, Kareem bests Jordan.

LeBron is the only player close to threatening Kareem's points-in-a-career record. That's rather remarkable.

Interesting analysis, and I find nothing to disagree with. I'd simply add Wilt to those who were "penalized" for something that is a great attribute.Both Wilt and Kareem are penalized for their height, and Wilt for his overall athletic prowess. It's as if there's a "not fair" sub conscious bias. I had not thought about Kareem being penalized for his longevity, but you may have a point there.

[luburch]

He may end up as the GOAT, but I think his bench demeanor after JRs screwup has to count against him. Sure JR is an idiot. But there was still OT, the game was not over. You gotta support your teammate, especially after a massive screwup.

LBJ has the whole offseason to rejoice in the hope that JR will never again be his teammate.

Have you heard Steve Kerr's comments on this? He completely disagrees with you. I side with Kerr.

[Neals384]

Have you heard Steve Kerr's comments on this? He completely disagrees with you. I side with Kerr.

Have not heard Kerr’s comments. Care to enlighten us?

[subzero02]

I feel like LBJ is the most talented and physical player in basketball history. I don't really care much about the outcome of this poll, but since LBJ talk seems to be the NBA version of "how many players will be in Ks rotation," or "debate the one and done rule," I thought I might institute a mercy thread to consolidate this discussion.

I imagine it will work about as well as the other consolidation threads, ie not at all.

LeBron is more physical than Shaq was? I've got to vehemently disagree. If you are saying that he's the most physically talented player in NBA history, I'd say that was true until the Greek Freak entered the league.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

LeBron is more physical than Shaq was? I've got to vehemently disagree. If you are saying that he's the most physically talented player in NBA history, I'd say that was true until the Greek Freak entered the league.

He said "talented and physical" which is a little different from both "most physical" and "most physically talented."