Semi Ojeleye and Duke

[arnie]

IMO, a player is recruited over if a coach tells him/her that their position is safe for the duration of their career, that said coach will not recruit a player with the capability of pushing the incumbent out of their starting spot.

Pretty sure K hasn't done that. No competent coach would. K has always tried to elevate the talent base, within the context of recruiting players who complement the school and the program.

Calipari? I believe he has been criticized for being so overly-reliant on OAD talent that he has nudged players into the NBA who weren't ready, to their detriment.

Again, I'm pretty sure K hasn't done that.

But, no, I don't see how recruiting talent to a program that returns talent constitutes "recruiting over." Duke has brought in at least one McDonald's and/or Parade All-American every class since 1982, for crying out loud. K is going to target top-tier talent. Always has, always will. Players know that going in.

OMG, Jim you referenced Mike Tissaw in the same thread as Simi. Quite the disparity in talent. I also don’t recall Semi putting his hand though a glass door?😀

[Troublemaker]

By your definition, no player has ever been "recruited over". Not at Duke, not at Kentucky, not at any school.

Exactly. "Recruited over" should die. It is a meme that has existed even before the internet whenever fans of one school wanted to rag fans of a rival school about being less classy, even though counterexamples would be plentiful at the first school. It's always been silly. Unless you have literally only 5 players on your roster, you've recruited over someone and have impacted someone's playing time.

Kill the meme, not the coaches.

[jimsumner]

Let me briefly go back to Ojeleye and 2014-'15.

Duke had four core starters that season, Okafor, Cook, Winslow and T. Jones.

Jefferson was a returning starter. He began the 14-15 season as a starter. He lost that spot not because of poor play but more because Duke thought the best way to maximize Okafor's talents was to surround him with four shooters.

Jefferson continued to get rotation minutes but Matt Jones became the starter, with Winslow moving to the 4.

Jones and Ojeleye were both sophomores. One is playing in the NBA, one is not. Had Ojeleye been ready for the opportunity, it's not hard to imagine him taking over as the fifth starter, keeping Winslow at the 3, giving Duke more rebounding and interior D.

So, the opportunity was there, Winslow notwithstanding.

Let me give you an example from the pages of yesteryear.

Greg Koubek was a McDonald's and Parade All-America, a consensus top-20 recruit in the h.s class of 1987.

He played 357 minutes as a freshman, on a team with two senior wing starters, Billy King and Kevin Strickland.

Koubek increased his minutes to 533 as a sophomore but was unable to beat out Robert Brickey for a starting spot.

In the meantime, Duke had brought in Brian Davis and Thomas Hill in classes below Koubek. Note than Davis (class of '88) was a fallback after Duke missed on Bryant Stith, who almost certainly would have started as a freshman in 1989, ahead of Brickey and Koubek. Recruited over?

Koubek played 574 minutes as a junior, a little more than Davis but still backing up Brickey.

Brickey and Phil Henderson both used up their eligibility after the 1990 season, leaving senior co-captain Greg Koubek a starting spot for the asking.

Only Duke had brought in a freshman named Grant Hill.

But it wasn't just Grant. Thomas Hill, Davis and Billy McCaffrey had all improved their games more than Koubek.

He not only wasn't starting, he wasn't even playing. He decided to quit the team at the semester break.

But he and K had a meeting. Tough love. K went down the roster of wings-Grant Hill, Brian Davis, Thomas Hill, McCaffrey-and asked Koubek the same questions. Are you playing better than him? Are you giving me a reason to sit them and play you?

Koubek knew the answer. He was coasting.

Koubek did some soul-searching and decided to rededicate himself to his team and his craft.

K gave him another chance. Next game, Koubek came off the bench and drew a charge, went to the floor for a loose ball, injected a shot of energy.

By the end of the season, Greg Koubek was starting for a national championship team.

So, yes, frank, sometimes heated, discussions occur in the Duke basketball community.

Responses vary.

[BD80]

This K guy sounds like a pretty good coach ...

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Let me briefly go back to Ojeleye and 2014-'15.

Duke had four core starters that season, Okafor, Cook, Winslow and T. Jones.

Jefferson was a returning starter. He began the 14-15 season as a starter. He lost that spot not because of poor play but more because Duke thought the best way to maximize Okafor's talents was to surround him with four shooters.

Jefferson continued to get rotation minutes but Matt Jones became the starter, with Winslow moving to the 4.

Jones and Ojeleye were both sophomores. One is playing in the NBA, one is not. Had Ojeleye been ready for the opportunity, it's not hard to imagine him taking over as the fifth starter, keeping Winslow at the 3, giving Duke more rebounding and interior D.

So, the opportunity was there, Winslow notwithstanding.


........By the end of the season, Greg Koubek was starting for a national championship team.
.

So couple things...where was Rasheed in that 14-15 mix before he was dismissed. He was getting pretty good minutes wasn't he?

And good ole Koubek. If memory serves, he opened the scoring for Duke to break the ice v. Kansas in the title game...

[CDu]

So couple things...where was Rasheed in that 14-15 mix before he was dismissed. He was getting pretty good minutes wasn't he?

And good ole Koubek. If memory serves, he opened the scoring for Duke to break the ice v. Kansas in the title game...

Sulaimon was the 6th man, coming off the bench behind Tyus Jones and Cook. He only averaged 19 mpg though, and didn’t really interfere with Ojeleye.

[DukieInBrasil]

So couple things...where was Rasheed in that 14-15 mix before he was dismissed. He was getting pretty good minutes wasn't he?

And good ole Koubek. If memory serves, he opened the scoring for Duke to break the ice v. Kansas in the title game...

yup, Sulaimon was playing plenty of minutes prior to his dismissal, which happened after Semi transferred. So had Semi had even just one semester more worth of patience, it's possible he could have gotten more PT that year anyway. I'll trade Semi's PT for a Natty any day though. I'm glad that Semi figured out what he needed to do to max out on his potential and that he's now earning NBA paychecks. Good on 'im.

[jimsumner]

So couple things...where was Rasheed in that 14-15 mix before he was dismissed. He was getting pretty good minutes wasn't he?

And good ole Koubek. If memory serves, he opened the scoring for Duke to break the ice v. Kansas in the title game...

Koubek scored the first five points of the '91 title game against Kansas.

Ended the game with five points.

Sent a message, I suppose.

[Nugget]

Exactly. "Recruited over" should die. It is a meme that has existed even before the internet whenever fans of one school wanted to rag fans of a rival school about being less classy, even though counterexamples would be plentiful at the first school. It's always been silly. Unless you have literally only 5 players on your roster, you've recruited over someone and have impacted someone's playing time.

Kill the meme, not the coaches.

Before we put "recruited over" out of its misery, we should pause and marvel at what Calipari is in the middle of doing to Quade Green, who was usurped (rightly, based on performance) as the key ball-handler during his freshman season by Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, and who now faces the prospect of Kentucky not only signing the #4 PG in the following class (Immanuel Quickley), but also adding the #1 and #2 PGs in the class after that (Ashton Hagans and Tyrese Maxey), and having BOTH of them reclassify so that Kentucky would have four Top 5 PG recruits on next year's roster.

That's virtuoso "recruiting over."

[Jeffrey]

Could I see that confrontation with Coach K and the parents happening? Yeah, I can.

I went through a performance review with an employee six months ago where the feedback was "you did OK, but not enough to get a promotion." Halfway through getting to why, she started crying, that it's not fair, she did what was asked (just not that well LOL), wailing about how she wants to get married and put a down payment for a house but can't without a pay raise, how could I do this to her, she was promised a promotion, etc. etc.

(Note this is a 30 year old Ivy League graduate.)

In my view of course I made no such promise. All possibilities are IF statements. "You can get X promotion IF..." And we simply disagree on whether she met the if condition. She did not.

Fast forward another 3 months, and in the next review I told her she was doing well enough to get a 5% raise but not more. Cue more wailing about how that's not enough, how she's suffering with taking a pay cut at my company, etc. etc...

Sorry, no matter how much you cry and plead -- she didn't kneel on the floor but spiritually it was close to it -- I'm not giving her a raise she didn't earn, while others have to earn theirs.

She tendered her resignation the next day and I'm pretty sure she's been complaining to people that she feels wronged, lied to and taken advantage of.

What're you gonna do? I'm sticking with what I believe in and if there's negative PR fallout, it is what it is.

So I can relate to Coach K here.

Clearly, a boss needs to discuss the employee's performance with the employee, as you described. However, we are talking about discussing it with their mother, father, and, even, brother.

IIRC, Semi was 20 when these discussions occurred. At 20, I certainly did not want or need my Mommie to fight my fights for me. At 20, Semi and I could have been completing our second year of military service and I doubt our CO would have been listening to our parents complaints. IMO, K is kind to repeatedly entertain these discussions, which are very stressful and hardly ever end well.

[UrinalCake]

Here's what really happened...


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[Steven43]

Another thing...this whole idea of yelling. Some people call any elevated voice volume "yelling" - when it's simply not the case.

Absolutely 100% true. My wife does that ALL THE TIME, and it drives me crazy. To her, any elevation of the voice, particularly when delivering a stern or angry message (especially to the kids) is defined as ‘yellng’. It’s amazing how some people can just completely mischaracterize things.

[BD80]

absolutely 100% true. My wife does that all the time, and it drives me crazy. To her, any elevation of the voice, particularly when delivering a stern or angry message (especially to the kids) is defined as ‘yellng’. It’s amazing how some people can just completely mischaracterize things.

typing in all caps is yelling!

[tteettimes]

Absolutely 100% true. My wife does that ALL THE TIME, and it drives me crazy. To her, any elevation of the voice, particularly when delivering a stern or angry message (especially to the kids) is defined as ‘yellng’. It’s amazing how some people can just completely mischaracterize things.

🤗🤗🤗——-YEAH——-but I wouldn’t trade my lifetime of it ❤️❤️❤️🤗🤗🤗

[HereBeforeCoachK]

🤗🤗🤗——-YEAH——-but I wouldn’t trade my lifetime of it ❤️❤️❤️🤗🤗🤗

...I resemble that remark...

[fgb]

Koubek scored the first five points of the '91 title game against Kansas.

Ended the game with five points.

Sent a message, I suppose.

oh, and got a ring. will probably show it to his grandkids some day.

sort of like what could have been if skywalker had just listened to yoda.