2020 Duke men's basketball recruiting

[Steven43]

Please tell us more about what these true Duke basketball fans want. The rest of us are living in a dull ignorance, watching the players in the program last year tarnish the name on the front of their jerseys. /Eye roll

We missed the last two Final Fours by a combined two possessions. We finished as the No.1 overall seed last season. We won a natty four years ago. Please explain what sustained success means in this program, if it's not what the current recruiting strategy is delivering.

English, I did not say any Duke fans are living in a dull ignorance. And I certainly did not say any Duke players tarnished the name (DUKE) on the front of their jerseys. For the record it was certainly not my intent to put down any DBR posters or other Duke fans. What I meant by "true" Duke fans are those who not only value the basketball program, but who also believe that student-athletes are supposed to actually be genuine students of academia with true and honest aspirations of completing a degree at Duke University.

The idea of students coming to Duke strictly to play basketball with only a nominal effort put forth towards academics is abhorrent to me. The fact that Duke is now mentioned in the EXACT SAME BREATH as Kentucky is embarrassing. I never would have believed I would live to see the day. When I alluded to Duke fans who value program continuity I meant the continuity of players being on the basketball team for the entirety of their freshman, sophomore, junior, and senior years. Not only does this allow the players to truly grow into their role on the team while gaining experience that can only come through several years of being a part of something bigger than themselves (Duke Basketball), it also affords them the opportunity, neh, the RESPONSIBILITY, to pass on all of the various traditions of the program to the younger players. It is only those players who commit fully to the academic and student life of Duke over a four-year period (or three years plus summers) who can truly be said to be a Duke Man in every sense of the word.

To that end I place greater value on what Nolan Smith, Tyler Thornton, Grayson Allen, Nate James, Kyle Singler, Lance Thomas, the Plumlee brothers, Amile Jefferson, et al. did for Duke University than what Jabari Parker, Austin Rivers, RJ Barrett, Cameron Reddish, Marvin Bagley, et al. did. In saying this I am not at all intending to slight the OADs as people, not one bit. But I am saying that taking everything into consideration, the value of what the four-year players bring to Duke University outweighs the value of what the OADs bring, no matter how much they contribute on the court during their one year at Duke.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

English, I did not say any Duke fans are living in a dull ignorance. And I certainly did not say any Duke players tarnished the name (DUKE) on the front of their jerseys. For the record it was certainly not my intent to put down any DBR posters or other Duke fans. What I meant by "true" Duke fans are those who not only value the basketball program, but who also believe that student-athletes are supposed to actually be genuine students of academia with true and honest aspirations of completing a degree at Duke University.

The idea of students coming to Duke strictly to play basketball with only a nominal effort put forth towards academics is abhorrent to me. The fact that Duke is now mentioned in the EXACT SAME BREATH as Kentucky is embarrassing. I never would have believed I would live to see the day. When I alluded to Duke fans who value program continuity I meant the continuity of players being on the basketball team for the entirety of their freshman, sophomore, junior, and senior years. Not only does this allow the players to truly grow into their role on the team while gaining experience that can only come through several years of being a part of something bigger than themselves (Duke Basketball), it also affords them the opportunity, neh, the RESPONSIBILITY, to pass on all of the various traditions of the program to the younger players. It is only those players who commit fully to the academic and student life of Duke over a four-year period (or three years plus summers) who can truly be said to be a Duke Man in every sense of the word.

To that end I place greater value on what Nolan Smith, Tyler Thornton, Grayson Allen, Nate James, Kyle Singler, Lance Thomas, the Plumlee brothers, Amile Jefferson, et al. did for Duke University than what Jabari Parker, Austin Rivers, RJ Barrett, Cameron Reddish, Marvin Bagley, et al. did. In saying this I am not at all intending to slight the OADs as people, not one bit. But I am saying that taking everything into consideration, the value of what the four-year players bring to Duke University outweighs the value of what the OADs bring, no matter how much they contribute on the court during their one year at Duke.

I agree with 95% of what you are saying in regards to the value of long term players. I'm sure that most college sports fan laugh off that mentality of "student athletes" as quaintly old school, but I'm with you.
I am surprised, however, that you haven't learned yet that no one on this board likes to be told what "real" or "true" fans should or ought to think or do.

[Spanarkel]

I was looking over the offers listed in the ESPN 2020 top 100 for the players 1-30 and there were some interesting (to me) things. I was looking at recruiting offers by UNC KY and Duke

Most of these players had other offers from other programs as well, but I focused on these three programs as most interesting to me (and probably a lot of Duke fans as well, I think)

You'd think that basketball being the same basic game at all three schools and all the schools having an abundance of resources and skill in their coaching staffs and facilities and all being able to compete for any player (UNC might be a step behind KY and Duke recently in recruiting, if not, interestingly, in results, but they are still a legit recruiting threat at the highest level) that there would be significant overlap in recruiting at the offer level between the three schools.
But you'd be wrong.

For the top 30 ESPN listed players
only 1 player (BJ Boston who signed with KY) listed offers from all three programs
only 4 players had offers from UNC and Duke (Zaire Williams, Walker Kessler, Jeremy Roach (Duke signed) and DJ Steward (Duke signed)
only three other players had offers from both Duke and KY Jalen Johnson (Duke), Scottie Barnes and Terrence Clark (KY)

other interesting information
3 players had offers from UNC and KY but not Duke--Caleb Cunningham, Isaiah Todd and Greg Brown
4 had offers from UNC only, 4 had offers from KY only and 1 had an offer from Duke only

If you further break down the top 30 into 1-15 and 16-30 you see that the top 15 had 24 offers total from these three schools, including 10 with offers from more than one school and only 2 had no offers (and both seem to be players already focused on a particular geographic area)
the bottom 15 had only 8 offers with only one with two schools offering (Steward) and 7 players with no offers from any of these three schools.

What does it all mean? There are a lot of variables underlying these observations. There are "offers" and "offers." Some player's lists, at this point in time were obviously more curated than others. Schools have different needs, strategies and open scholarships. I just think it's interesting that one, there are fewer "recruiting battles" for the top talent between these schools than you might expect, and two, experts in basketball clearly differ significantly in what they consider the best options for adding talent to their teams.

Found your comments to be very interesting. You are 100% accurate on the Top 30 2020 players' concurrent offers from Duke, KY, and unc. I would mention that the ESPN Top 100 data base is incomplete, often listing 5-7 offers for an individual player when in fact they might hold 2-3 times that many offers(ie, Walker Kessler's SI profile lists 6 current offers--I know he's narrowed his list to his top schools--but in fact he appears to have received 23 offers, at least according to VerbalCommits.com, and Ziare Williams' SI profile lists 7 schools while VerbalCommits.com shows him to hold 17 offers).

[UrinalCake]

The idea of students coming to Duke strictly to play basketball with only a nominal effort put forth towards academics is abhorrent to me.

I know that many fans share this opinion. I guess what I’d have to say in response is that

a.) there have been plenty of four year players who are only at the school for basketball and put forth a nominal effort towards academics, they just do it over a longer period of time which I’m not sure makes it any “better.” Conversely, we’ve had OAD’s who really do soak in all they can for their one year, take classes that challenge them and engage in the student community.

b.) college basketball is just different now, and players leaving early is the norm rather than the exception. Even programs like UVA and Villanova which have reputations as four year development programs have guys leave early. It’s just a matter of degree. So I 100% agree with you that as a long-time fan it’s somewhat shocking that Duke has gone this route of targeting a whole class of OAD’s every year. But I don’t think that having zero guys leave early is really an option either.

c.) if you were to go up to any college basketball team in the entire country, pick out any random player, and offer him a first round NBA contract, I would just about guarantee that he would take it. He would drop whatever notion of academics he has and take the money. So Duke players aren’t any different in that regard, they’re just in a position to actually realize that goal of making the NBA.

[clinresga]

To that end I place greater value on what Nolan Smith, Tyler Thornton, Grayson Allen, Nate James, Kyle Singler, Lance Thomas, the Plumlee brothers, Amile Jefferson, et al. did for Duke University than what Jabari Parker, Austin Rivers, RJ Barrett, Cameron Reddish, Marvin Bagley, et al. did. In saying this I am not at all intending to slight the OADs as people, not one bit. But I am saying that taking everything into consideration, the value of what the four-year players bring to Duke University outweighs the value of what the OADs bring, no matter how much they contribute on the court during their one year at Duke.

There's an element of cherry picking in this argument, as, obviously, OAD did not exist before 2006. How would you feel about Duke basketball history (and what would the Cameron rafters look like) if the rule had been present in the "golden era?" So many of the Duke players who are remembered most fondly here would have gone OAD in a minute, given the chance. Duke, minus Laettner, Hurley, Redick, Battier, Gminski, Hill, Dawkins, Banks, etc etc, would have been a shadow of what it became if they had shunned "OAD's" in that earlier era. I love Grayson, Amile, Quinn, and Matt, but no way in the world they win the natty without Jahlil, Justise, and Tyus. I'd gladly reluctantly wave goodbye to them after one year in return for the joy of the Championship.

Duke has always recruited the best available players. That, and K's genius, are why we have had such an unbelievable run. And I love watching our OAD's in the NBA, and to me, they are as much a part of the Brotherhood as their predecessors.

[Steven43]

I know that many fans share this opinion. I guess what I’d have to say in response is that

a.) there have been plenty of four year players who are only at the school for basketball and put forth a nominal effort towards academics, they just do it over a longer period of time which I’m not sure makes it any “better.”

UC, I do not agree with your take at all. One does not earn a degree from Duke University — a grand achievement in my opinion — by putting forth a nominal academic effort.

[Reddevil]

There's an element of cherry picking in this argument, as, obviously, OAD did not exist before 2006. How would you feel about Duke basketball history (and what would the Cameron rafters look like) if the rule had been present in the "golden era?" So many of the Duke players who are remembered most fondly here would have gone OAD in a minute, given the chance. Duke, minus Laettner, Hurley, Redick, Battier, Gminski, Hill, Dawkins, Banks, etc etc, would have been a shadow of what it became if they had shunned "OAD's" in that earlier era. I love Grayson, Amile, Quinn, and Matt, but no way in the world they win the natty without Jahlil, Justise, and Tyus. I'd gladly reluctantly wave goodbye to them after one year in return for the joy of the Championship.

Duke has always recruited the best available players. That, and K's genius, are why we have had such an unbelievable run. And I love watching our OAD's in the NBA, and to me, they are as much a part of the Brotherhood as their predecessors.

I agree with much of this. The bolded part makes me realize that we would not have had that golden era. What made it golden? Did we care more about teams because we knew the players longer like in the pro days before it became rooting for laundry (free agency)? Perhaps when college kids start getting paid and older fans like me tune out, the whole thing will collapse. Maybe not. Maybe the younger crowd is ready to embrace what is coming. I just think the old model created an atmosphere that was unique and sadly gone. Sports has become dominated by what the fans want. Careful sports, the fans could get turned off in a hurry is all I'm saying. This has nothing to do with arguing right and wrong. Just saying the consequences that unfold will be interesting to witness.

[JasonEvans]

One does not earn a degree from Duke University — a grand achievement in my opinion — by putting forth a nominal academic effort.

I don't want to say too much, as this is not the place for it, but you are wrong. Let's just leave it at that.

[Steven43]

So many of the Duke players who are remembered most fondly here would have gone OAD in a minute, given the chance. Duke, minus Laettner, Hurley, Redick, Battier, Gminski, Hill, Dawkins, Banks, etc etc, would have been a shadow of what it became if they had shunned "OAD's" in that earlier era.

You have no way of knowing which players from three or four decades ago would have chosen to be OAD had they been given the opportunity. It’s a moot point for the purposes of this discussion.

Additionally, I would bet anything you would be willing to bet that the majority of the players you mentioned would not change a thing about their time at Duke and are extremely proud of having been four-year student-athletes who earned a Duke degree.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

There's a lot of very deep Duke blue shades being worn here today.

[sagegrouse]

I agree with much of this. The bolded part makes me realize that we would not have had that golden era. What made it golden? Did we care more about teams because we knew the players longer like in the pro days before it became rooting for laundry (free agency)? Perhaps when college kids start getting paid and older fans like me tune out, the whole thing will collapse. Maybe not. Maybe the younger crowd is ready to embrace what is coming. I just think the old model created an atmosphere that was unique and sadly gone. Sports has become dominated by what the fans want. Careful sports, the fans could get turned off in a hurry is all I'm saying. This has nothing to do with arguing right and wrong. Just saying the consequences that unfold will be interesting to witness.

Heck, it's worse than that. Heyman, Mullins, and Verga would have gone pro after their freshman years and never even played varsity ball.

[Indoor66]

Heck, it's worse than that. Heyman, Mullins, and Verga would have gone pro after their freshman years and never even played varsity ball.

And taken Marin and Lewis with them.

[UrinalCake]

UC, I do not agree with your take at all. One does not earn a degree from Duke University — a grand achievement in my opinion — by putting forth a nominal academic effort.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that if you're a star basketball player you can absolutely graduate from Duke while putting forth a nominal academic effort. Perhaps we have different interpretations of the word "nominal." I'm not saying this is UNC where they just hand you a spot on the Dean's list for doing nothing. I do believe that our players go to class and do the required amount of work to legitimately pass those classes. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the amount of discipline and effort it must take to do even the minimum amount required while balancing the time commitments of playing ball. But I am not naive enough to think that every player deeply strives to excel in the classroom. Some of them do, but for the most part these guys are at Duke for basketball.

My original point was that when comparing four year players to OAD's, you can find examples on either end of the spectrum and so we shouldn't immediately assume that having OAD's means that none of our players care about academics. I still remember Justise Winslow being on ESPN the day after winning the title and having to cut his interview short because he was on his way to class. He had absolutely zero reason to care about his academics as his college career was effectively over, but he still did. He also described writing a paper on the bus ride home from regional final.

[SouthernDukie]

And taken Marin and Lewis with them.

And don't forget Abbott & Costello.

[Steven43]

My original point was that when comparing four year players to OAD's, you can find examples on either end of the spectrum and so we shouldn't immediately assume that having OAD's means that none of our players care about academics. I still remember Justise Winslow being on ESPN the day after winning the title and having to cut his interview short because he was on his way to class. He had absolutely zero reason to care about his academics as his college career was effectively over, but he still did. He also described writing a paper on the bus ride home from regional final.

UC, that’s why Duke doesn’t give one-year bachelor’s degrees. Because doing it for just one year doesn’t mean a whole lot.

[Steven43]

I don't want to say too much, as this is not the place for it, but you are wrong. Let's just leave it at that.

Jason, I respect you, but I do not respect this comment. First of all, you declaring something does not make it so. Second, all your comment does is diminish the aura of the great achievement of earning a Duke degree. I have no idea why you would want to do this.

[JasonEvans]

Jason, I respect you, but I do not respect this comment. First of all, you declaring something does not make it so. Second, all your comment does is diminish the aura of the great achievement of earning a Duke degree. I have no idea why you would want to do this.

I personally witnessed, when I was at Duke, that some students did not have to put in all that much effort to graduate. I don't want to get into the reasons for it, but I suspect there are many other folks who went to Duke over the years who saw the same thing.

I don't believe that statement at all diminishes the degree or the effort other Duke grads put in. It took some unique circumstances to be one of the folks who could get by on less than full effort and the vast, vast majority of us did not fall into those circumstances. I also personally witnessed some folks who could have gotten by on minimal effort but chose to embrace what the school had to offer instead.

I suspect you can read between the lines and understand what I am saying. I doubt many folks here find it all that surprising and many have seen it themselves as well.

-Jason "you or others can feel free to PM me if you want more clarification... let's just leave it at that" Evans

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I personally witnessed, when I was at Duke, that some students did not have to put in all that much effort to graduate. I don't want to get into the reasons for it, but I suspect there are many other folks who went to Duke over the years who saw the same thing.

I don't believe that statement at all diminishes the degree or the effort other Duke grads put in. It took some unique circumstances to be one of the folks who could get by on less than full effort and the vast, vast majority of us did not fall into those circumstances. I also personally witnessed some folks who could have gotten by on minimal effort but chose to embrace what the school had to offer instead.

I suspect you can read between the lines and understand what I am saying. I doubt many folks here find it all that surprising and many have seen it themselves as well.

-Jason "you or others can feel free to PM me if you want more clarification... let's just leave it at that" Evans

I agree with Jason. While I was at Duke there were plenty of my classmates who really did not work very hard for various reasons, some better than others. I had a few classes where I certainly did not try very hard. It really isn't that hard to create a schedule at Duke and graduate without putting in too much effort in those classes. Your GPA will likely reflect this lack of effort, but you can probably pass all of your classes and get the degree.

I'm not sure why Jason's comment seemed so offensive. Some of the students who were not working very hard were doing it for very good reasons - personal problems, focusing on one specific class or a thesis at the expense of other classes, etc. I had a semester where I was dealing with some significant personal issues and didn't focus very hard on academics, and my grades suffered as a result, and another semester where I was very focused on non-academic pursuits and my GPA also dipped slightly that semester. When I was applying to grad school a few years later and my Duke GPA was part of my application, part of me wished I had focused more on my grades, but the decision was definitely the right one for me at the time.

[sagegrouse]

I agree with Jason. While I was at Duke there were plenty of my classmates who really did not work very hard for various reasons, some better than others. I had a few classes where I certainly did not try very hard. It really isn't that hard to create a schedule at Duke and graduate without putting in too much effort in those classes. Your GPA will likely reflect this lack of effort, but you can probably pass all of your classes and get the degree.

I'm not sure why Jason's comment seemed so offensive. Some of the students who were not working very hard were doing it for very good reasons - personal problems, focusing on one specific class or a thesis at the expense of other classes, etc. I had a semester where I was dealing with some significant personal issues and didn't focus very hard on academics, and my grades suffered as a result, and another semester where I was very focused on non-academic pursuits and my GPA also dipped slightly that semester. When I was applying to grad school a few years later and my Duke GPA was part of my application, part of me wished I had focused more on my grades, but the decision was definitely the right one for me at the time.

Moreover, this appears to be true at almost every school. What is the purpose, for example, of "American Studies" at Yale?

[UrinalCake]

UC, that’s why Duke doesn’t give one-year bachelor’s degrees. Because doing it for just one year doesn’t mean a whole lot.

Yeah, but our players attend more classes in one year than UNC’s players do in four 8-)