NBA Playoffs 2018

[elvis14]

So...we have Heat/Sixers at 8:00 and GSW/SAS at 10:30 tonight for the 2018 playoffs. I'm looking forward to both games. I'm looking forward to seeing Duke players play in both games. Can the Spurs even take a game from the GSW? The Sixers are hot even without Joel...how good are they really?

Jordan didn't make the playoffs this year, Doc Rivers just couldn't get it done with JJ to complement Austin.

[moonpie23]

Comparing greats across different eras is extremely difficult. The game changes and the players change.

this is true, but, when i think about a one on one match up? jordan fouls out every single time....

[elvis14]

this is true, but, when i think about a one on one match up? jordan fouls out every single time...

With Jordan in the West and the Clippers missing the 2018 playoffs, I don't think it's going to be an issue.

[nmduke2001]

Gonna have to disagree with you here, on both counts.

Rodman was still a very useful player, but he was nearing the end of the line in his years with the Bulls. Still very good, but not nearly the defender he was in his prime.

And Ehlo was a very good NBA player. A very good defender and a solid 3pt shooter. In his prime, Ehlo averaged double-digit scoring, 4 assists per game, and shot high-30s/low-40s 3pt % (in an era in which the 3 was undervalued). He'd absolutely be a regular in the league today. I mean, seriously, guys like Marco Belinelli are regulars in the league.

I'll give you this, but do you think he'd be the guy guarding Jordan at the end of the game if they were both playing today?

[darthur]

You think Pippen was the second best or third best player in the league? On the Bulls, most certainly. But better than Bird, Magic, Malone, Barkley, Isiah, Robinson, Shaq, and Olajuwon? No way. Hell, Pippen never broke the top 250 PER in seasons: https://www.basketball-reference.com...er_season.html

I think that top-250 stat says as much about PER as it does about Pippen. PER loves big men and it loves high usage. As long as you're getting more than ~0.5 points per shot, shooting more increases PER. That's crazy! For example, note that it thinks benchwarmer-who-nobody-else-wanted-to-sign Javale McGee is (easily) the third best Warrior this year. Now McGee is better than his minutes and played great against the Spurs on Saturday, but still...

[CDu]

I think that top-250 stat says as much about PER as it does about Pippen. PER loves big men and it loves high usage. As long as you're getting more than ~0.5 points per shot, shooting more increases PER. That's crazy! For example, note that it thinks benchwarmer-who-nobody-else-wanted-to-sign Javale McGee is (easily) the third best Warrior this year. Now McGee is better than his minutes and played great against the Spurs on Saturday, but still...

Yeah, PER is a pretty bad stat when it comes to things like defense (unless you are a shotblocker or steals hound, and it overrates steals). And of course, that is the thing Pippen did as well as anyone. He could defend at least 4 positions pretty much as well as anyone in the league. Dude was a beast. But PER has no way of knowing that. Nor does it understand that he was playing next to one of the highest-usage players ever, which capped his offensive rate stats.

[phaedrus]

Yeah, PER is a pretty bad stat when it comes to things like defense (unless you are a shotblocker or steals hound, and it overrates steals). And of course, that is the thing Pippen did as well as anyone. He could defend at least 4 positions pretty much as well as anyone in the league. Dude was a beast. But PER has no way of knowing that. Nor does it understand that he was playing next to one of the highest-usage players ever, which capped his offensive rate stats.

Here's total win-shares from 1991-1999:

http://bkref.com/tiny/cRIGv

Pippen is 7th, behind Malone, Robinson, Jordan, Stockton, Miller, and Barkley.

Here's VORP for the same time period:

http://bkref.com/tiny/09VVF

Pippen is 3rd behind Malone and Robinson.

Pippen was certainly a top-5 or at worst top-10 player looking at the decade as a whole.

Are we off-topic yet?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Here's total win-shares from 1991-1999:

http://bkref.com/tiny/cRIGv

Pippen is 7th, behind Malone, Robinson, Jordan, Stockton, Miller, and Barkley.

Here's VORP for the same time period:

http://bkref.com/tiny/09VVF

Pippen is 3rd behind Malone and Robinson.

Pippen was certainly a top-5 or at worst top-10 player looking at the decade as a whole.

Are we off-topic yet?

Top ten is very different than top two. I would agree top ten.

[CDu]

Top ten is very different than top two. I would agree top ten.

In the context of what is being discussed, though, it really isn't. LeBron hasn't had a clear top-10 player next to him for most of his career. Certainly not prior to coming to the Heat, and arguably not since returning to the Cavs. And arguably not while he was with the Heat either. Jordan, on the other hand, pretty clearly had a top-10 player sharing the court with him for all of his title years. So Jordan had a player as good or better than anyone LeBron has played with in the Finals.

That being said, LeBron has had arguably better players from 3-7 than Jordan had.

[Wander]

Jordan's defensive awards (one DPOY, and 9 selections to the first all-defensive team compared to Lebron's 5) are what tip the scales to Jordan for me in the Jordan vs. Lebron debate.

But yeah, I agree with Mtn.Devil that it's strange timing for this thread derailment given the loss.

[MartyClark]

Jordan's defensive awards (one DPOY, and 9 selections to the first all-defensive team compared to Lebron's 5) are what tip the scales to Jordan for me in the Jordan vs. Lebron debate.

But yeah, I agree with Mtn.Devil that it's strange timing for this thread derailment given the loss.

To further derail the thread . . . I think Pippen was the greatest #2 guy in history. He could score, bring the ball up, play defense, rebound and make his team better.

I don't think he had the mental strength, determination or stamina to be a #1 guy after Jordan left. The whole was greater than the sum of the parts. But he was outstanding, maybe the best, as the second best player on the Jordan led Bulls teams.

[kshepinthehouse]

Jordan's defensive awards (one DPOY, and 9 selections to the first all-defensive team compared to Lebron's 5) are what tip the scales to Jordan for me in the Jordan vs. Lebron debate.

But yeah, I agree with Mtn.Devil that it's strange timing for this thread derailment given the loss.

Wasn’t trying to turn this into a Jordan vs Lebron debate as I’m not a big fan of either. But I take exception when people are always throwing out the narrative this year that Lebron doesn’t have a strong supporting cast and is somehow an underdog to make it to the finals.

Love, Hill, Clarkson, Nance, Korver, Thompson, Hood aren’t exactly pushovers.

[JNort]

You think Pippen was the second best or third best player in the league? On the Bulls, most certainly. But better than Bird, Magic, Malone, Barkley, Isiah, Robinson, Shaq, and Olajuwon? No way. Hell, Pippen never broke the top 250 PER in seasons: https://www.basketball-reference.com...er_season.html

I don't think you read his post right. He's saying on any given night those Bulls had 2 of the top 3 guys on the floor. Not that they had 2 of the top 3 in the league (Like the Warriors do now)

[JNort]

In the context of what is being discussed, though, it really isn't. LeBron hasn't had a clear top-10 player next to him for most of his career. Certainly not prior to coming to the Heat, and arguably not since returning to the Cavs. And arguably not while he was with the Heat either. Jordan, on the other hand, pretty clearly had a top-10 player sharing the court with him for all of his title years. So Jordan had a player as good or better than anyone LeBron has played with in the Finals.

That being said, LeBron has had arguably better players from 3-7 than Jordan had.

I don't agree with that either but it's beside my point. In basketball more than any other team sport it's important to be top heavy in talent and depth doesn't matter too much at the pro level. Those Bulls were always rocking 2 of the top 3 on the floor on any given night plus a couple of the best shooters in the league, best rebounder as well as the best coach.

Put LeBron and Kawhi Leonard together with one of the better rebounders/defenders (Draymond) on the floor together with the best role 3 point shooter (JJ) and let Pop or Stevens coach.

Bet they finish number 1 on defense and top 5 offense with the Championship at the end of the year.

[howardlander]

I don't think you read his post right. He's saying on any given night those Bulls had 2 of the top 3 guys on the floor. Not that they had 2 of the top 3 in the league (Like the Warriors do now)

Right. That was the point. Thanks.

Howard

[howardlander]

BTW, not to derail a good historical argument but is J.J. injured? I didn't see him on the floor for the sixers.

[Furniture]

Winslow is a beast on D. He also looks like a real leader on the floor.

[dukelifer]

Dwyane Wade drove to the game in his DeLorean tonight.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

Dwyane Wade drove to the game in his DeLorean tonight.

They put him back in the game with 3 minutes left and about 4 seconds later he makes the game-defining play with the strip and score on Simmons.

[BD80]

... -Jason "anyone want to speculate how many games this Cavs team would win minus Lebron? I say maybe 30... depends on whether they try to win or they tank" Evans

Considering they would then have had Kyrie, I'd go with 41+ and playoffs.

Dwyane Wade drove to the game in his DeLorean tonight.

Definitely got it up to 88 mph. Scored 28 in 25 minutes. Does that mean Gabriel was back in her cheerleader uniform?