Jordan didn’t play in the super team era. He didn’t leave as a free agent to play with a Dwayne Wade and a Chris Bosh. He played for one team his whole career and won, mainly because of his talents, not because of free agency decisions.
I agree that Lebron in the past has dragged a bunch of nobodies to the finals before in his first stint with the cavs. Ever since then he has had a lot of talent and a lot of talented role players helping him.
Comparing greats across different eras is extremely difficult. The game changes and the players change.
That said, pretending that Jordan had to drag those teams to titles is a little bit silly. He played alongside a HOFer in Scottie Pippen. Toni Kukoc was 6th man of the year. Dennis Rodman was Draymond Green before Draymond was Draymond, a freak on the boards and the best defender in the league. Steve Kerr and John Paxon are two of the great shooters of their era. Most importantly, the year after Jordan retired, the Bulls still won 55 games. How can anyone say Jordan's teammates were trash when those same teammates were one of the better teams in the league without him on the team?!!?
-Jason "anyone want to speculate how many games this Cavs team would win minus Lebron? I say maybe 30... depends on whether they try to win or they tank" Evans
Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?
"We are not provided with wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can take for us, an effort which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world." --M. Proust
Any time this conversation comes up I like to ask, "what could Jordan do that Lebron can't?"...Also, Lebron does it in Karl Malone's body.
Rodman is also a HOFer and arguably the best defender of his generation. Jordan had plenty of help. One last thing; when Jordan made his iconic game winner against the Cavs, who was guarding him? Craig Ehlo. Does anyone think that Craig Ehlo would get significant minutes in the modern NBA. I don't.
Small point of contention: Rodman was a great defender over the course of his career, but well past his prime in that respect during his time with the Bulls. Shawn Kemp and Karl Malone both generally had their way with him in the 96, 97 and 98 Finals. Rodman was still an elite rebounder in those years, though some thought he padded his numbers against weaker competition. As a Bull, he averaged 15.3 boards per game in the regular season and 11.3 in the playoffs; the latter figure was still very good, of course, and very important to the Bulls' success, but no longer superhuman.
Gonna have to disagree with you here, on both counts.
Rodman was still a very useful player, but he was nearing the end of the line in his years with the Bulls. Still very good, but not nearly the defender he was in his prime.
And Ehlo was a very good NBA player. A very good defender and a solid 3pt shooter. In his prime, Ehlo averaged double-digit scoring, 4 assists per game, and shot high-30s/low-40s 3pt % (in an era in which the 3 was undervalued). He'd absolutely be a regular in the league today. I mean, seriously, guys like Marco Belinelli are regulars in the league.
When did it ever happen to Jordan? I'd argue that, at least when the Bulls were winning titles, Jordan and Pippen were normally either the 2 best or 2 of the 3 best players. People forget how good Pippen was. He was much better than anyone LeBron has ever played with, with the possible exception of Dwayne Wade. Kyrie is a great player in his own right, but I can't put him at Pippen's level.
Pippen was certainly as good as any player LeBron ever played with. The argument really falls to the third spot on the floor and beyond. I'd argue that both Bosh and Love were better than the Bulls' third man (Grant in the early years, Rodman or Kukoc in the later years). And I'd argue that the role players Lebron has had were better than than the role players the Bulls had.
But, that's neither here nor there. The biggest difference I see is that the quality of Bulls' opponents was lower than the quality of LeBron's opponents, especially in the Finals. There was maybe one Finals series ever in which Jordan's Bulls weren't the better team. LeBron has had less good fortune. He's run into some teams that were simply better. I'd argue that Golden State was better all 3 times they played, and San Antonio was better in 2007. His Heat were better than Dallas and OKC, and were on par with those Spurs teams (so a split seems right).
Here's an article that discusses LeBron's playoff legacy in more detail:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...isappointment/
Spoiler alert: it suggests LeBron's teams did basically about what they were supposed to do. This was as of 2016, so it omits his last two Finals appearances. Both of those were expected to be losses, but they won one, which means he had 3 wins with an expectation of 3 wins.
Jordan's Bulls did better than expected, but they were also heavy favorites in 4 of his 6 Finals appearances. And they were only underdogs once: a slight underdog to Utah. Lebron's teams were underdogs 5 of 8 times.
If Jordan's Bulls had faced the Warriors three times and the Spurs 3 times, maybe Jordan only has 2 or 3 titles instead of six.
You think Pippen was the second best or third best player in the league? On the Bulls, most certainly. But better than Bird, Magic, Malone, Barkley, Isiah, Robinson, Shaq, and Olajuwon? No way. Hell, Pippen never broke the top 250 PER in seasons: https://www.basketball-reference.com...er_season.html
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill
President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club
For the period where the Bulls were at their peak? ('91-'98) Yeah, he definitely was in the conversation. Bird, Magic & Isiah were all out of the league/ on the downslide by then. Pippen was better than Barkley or Robinson. Malone, Shaq and Hakeem were all in the conversation with him, but Pippen absolutely was one of the best players in the NBA in his prime.