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  1. #921
    I am with the crowd that (a) appreciates these Warriors and the basketball they play, (b) is in awe of LeBron James, (c) was ecstatic that Kyrie won LeBron a ring with Kyrie’s Laettner-level-assassin-game-7-NBA-Finals winning shot (and more) and (d) is all-in with Jayson and his Celtics.

    Come on in. The water is fine.
    Carolina delenda est

  2. Yes I got to say the NBA produces a better product these days than the NCAA.

  3. #923
    Quote Originally Posted by kshepinthehouse View Post
    Looks like Lebron quit.
    42, 10 and 12 and you say he quit?

    Look, you don't have to like the guy or root for the guy, but I don't know how you can watch him play basketball and say he "quit" or doesn't make his teammates better. His ability to find the open man is likely the best by a non-point guard in history. If anything, he has been historically criticized for passing too much. You could argue, I guess, that he doesn't make his (pretty poor) teammates good enough to win this series, but to say he isn't easy to play with or quit is just... Weird.

    Unless you mean he isn't easy to play with because he yells at you when you are out of position and demands a lot out of you as a teammate.

    Celtics won last night, because just like us, they knew LeBron was going to come out last night like a mad hornet. They didn't necessarily "give" him that, but focused off ball defense and passing lanes, and then taking care of business on offense. They had four or five guys who had amazing stretches on offense - consecutive shots, great dunks, unexpected threes, breakaways. The Cavs had a career night from James and a decent night from Love.

    Despite this game being a "must win" for both teams (eye roll), the reality is the Cavs have their back against a wall now. Game three is as close to a must win as you can get in a non-elimination game. Take care of business at home, no one remembers this 0-2 start. Stumble at home, it's effectively over.

    As much as I enjoy watching this Celtics team, and as much as I love watching LeBron on the court, this round is pretty clearly just a selection process for getting slaughtered in the finals.

    For LeBron, getting back to the Finals and being sacrifices to the Ws would be just another chapter in his story. People would praise him for dragging this team that far.

    For the Celtics, a Finals appearance would be positively epic, considering all the injuries they fought through this year. Might be ocassion for the only "we got to the Finals" statue, in honor of The Magnificent Steven(s).

  4. #924
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    42, 10 and 12 and you say he quit?

    Look, you don't have to like the guy or root for the guy, but I don't know how you can watch him play basketball and say he "quit" or doesn't make his teammates better. His ability to find the open man is likely the best by a non-point guard in history. If anything, he has been historically criticized for passing too much. You could argue, I guess, that he doesn't make his (pretty poor) teammates good enough to win this series, but to say he isn't easy to play with or quit is just... Weird.

    Unless you mean he isn't easy to play with because he yells at you when you are out of position and demands a lot out of you as a teammate.

    Celtics won last night, because just like us, they knew LeBron was going to come out last night like a mad hornet. They didn't necessarily "give" him that, but focused off ball defense and passing lanes, and then taking care of business on offense. They had four or five guys who had amazing stretches on offense - consecutive shots, great dunks, unexpected threes, breakaways. The Cavs had a career night from James and a decent night from Love.

    Despite this game being a "must win" for both teams (eye roll), the reality is the Cavs have their back against a wall now. Game three is as close to a must win as you can get in a non-elimination game. Take care of business at home, no one remembers this 0-2 start. Stumble at home, it's effectively over.

    As much as I enjoy watching this Celtics team, and as much as I love watching LeBron on the court, this round is pretty clearly just a selection process for getting slaughtered in the finals.

    For LeBron, getting back to the Finals and being sacrifices to the Ws would be just another chapter in his story. People would praise him for dragging this team that far.

    For the Celtics, a Finals appearance would be positively epic, considering all the injuries they fought through this year. Might be ocassion for the only "we got to the Finals" statue, in honor of The Magnificent Steven(s).
    Go back and watch the 4th quarter and see if you think Lebron gave vintage effort offensively and defensively. He seemed to be uniquely passive on offense and appeared to mail it in at times on defense. There was a point in the 4th where they were only down 6. Quit is a harsh word, but was he tired? Did the collision with Tatum affect him? Had he accepted defeat? Was he frustrated with his teammates?

    Lebron absolutely has the ability to make his teammates better and he mostly does, but I think it takes the right personality to be able to play with him. It would be really easy to be intimidated by him and would cause your game to suffer. Has he made Rodney Hood better? Has he made George Hill better? These are two competent basketball players who have looked like a shell of their former selves. I really thought the acquisition of such a respectable, solid veteran such as Hill was going to be the perfect fit. Not everyone has what it takes to play alongside Lebron with the amount of pressure he puts on his teammates.

    I'm taking it that you're in the came of those who feel sorry for Lebron because he has such trash teammates? Did Lebron the GM make the wrong moves? He had solid veterans in Rose, Wade, Frye, Crowder, etc and they didn't seem to play as high of a level they are accustomed to. Then they traded everyone but a couple of people, this is what Lebron had to say about his new team:

    https://www.slamonline.com/uncategor...ing-squad-now/

    So now, because they are getting whooped by the Celtics, we are supposed to feel sorry for him or praise him if he can "drag these poor players" to the finals?

  5. #925
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by darthur View Post
    First of all, LeBron James was top 1, not top 5, and still is. The difference between him and #2 is huge too. Second of all, you are way underselling Dwyane Wade who was only a few years away from single-handedly leading a team to the NBA championship. Here's VORP in 2010:

    1. LeBron James • CLE 10.9
    2. Dwyane Wade • MIA 8.0
    3. Kevin Durant • OKC 5.8
    4. Josh Smith • ATL 5.4
    5. Dwight Howard • ORL 5.4

    James+Wade were absolutely as talented as Curry+Durant, and Bosh was at the level of Draymond+Klay. You're right that the Warriors are better, although I think that fit plays a bigger role in this difference than raw talent. Talent-wise, the Warriors are mainly better in 4th and 5th best slots, and the rest is close. With all due love to my man Quinn Cook and shaqtin' MVP Javaaaaale McGee, it's not a great sign when some of your best reserves are people that literally nobody else wanted.

    Indeed I shouldn't have said the Heat are just as ridiculous, but I do think they are close. A big part of this is because it was such a blatant attempt to create a super team with all 3 stars planning the whole thing in advance, and no other team in the NBA being close on a sheer talent level. And it was pretty damn successful -- they won 2 titles in 4 years and won 27 games in a row.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to defend KD's decision or saying I disagree with your overall point about the Warriors. I just think LeBron of all people deserves little sympathy.
    James + Wade are equal to Curry + Durant? Perhaps but only because LeBron is that much better. I'm just going by the NBA positional rankings at the time. Wade was never a top 5 guy, in fact at best he was ranked 8th and then slipped into the teens the following years with Bosh always around 15th to 19th. KD and Steph are routinely put 2 through 4 with either Leonard or Davis. I agree that fit is also the thing and it's why I mentioned the shooting aspect.

    You disagree with my overall point about the Dubs? Not sure how you can say that. My overall point is the cap needs to be fixed to stop 1 single team from dominating or even 2 teams.

    Again not sure why you bring up LeBron, this conversation had nothing to do with him. Others brought him up, in fact the only ones bringing him up are those who defend the ridiculousness of the powerhouse that is the Dubs roster. Kind says something if you ask me.
    "God gave me some height and ability but didn't necessarily give me lateral quickness or the little things that make a talented defender, but I've worked my butt off, and I think I'm pretty good at it." - Ryan "The White Raven" Kelly

  6. #926
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    As I read this thread I'm reminded that LeBron is just held to a different standard than everyone else. I don't root for the guy and I haven't since 'The Decision' but the question isn't "Is the the best player?", the question is "Is he the best ever?". He gets measured against that second question, MJ, Wilt, Russel, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell, etc. and he's earned that level of respect. But I think that him playing against not just the Celtics but history can have an effect on how people discuss his efforts and how we perceive what he's doing.

    That said, I do think that when he collided with Tatum last night that it took something out of him. Although he put up great numbers, the before and after around that collision were pretty obvious to me. That's not a criticism, he got hit pretty hard and I think a lot of guys would have been done (LeBron strong like OX!).

    A few comments on the playoffs in general. One thing that I've noticed, especially in the 3 games played so far in the conference finals is the intensity. Wow are these guys into these games! It's just fantastic. Heck, Draymond was so fired up Monday night he almost got thrown out in the first quarter. I know some people only watch the playoffs and think that the regular season isn't good or doesn't matter. I think the regular season is great and really enjoy watching games when I can (especially when Duke players are involved) but these playoff games are at another level. I don't think the players could physically and mentally withstand this level of play through 82 regular season games (and many playoff games). I'm not sure I could handle watching a full season of games like this (I was ready to punch Chris Paul in the head Monday night and I generally like State Farm Boy).

  7. #927
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    As I read this thread I'm reminded that LeBron is just held to a different standard than everyone else. I don't root for the guy and I haven't since 'The Decision' but the question isn't "Is the the best player?", the question is "Is he the best ever?". He gets measured against that second question, MJ, Wilt, Russel, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell, etc. and he's earned that level of respect. But I think that him playing against not just the Celtics but history can have an effect on how people discuss his efforts and how we perceive what he's doing.

    That said, I do think that when he collided with Tatum last night that it took something out of him. Although he put up great numbers, the before and after around that collision were pretty obvious to me. That's not a criticism, he got hit pretty hard and I think a lot of guys would have been done (LeBron strong like OX!).

    A few comments on the playoffs in general. One thing that I've noticed, especially in the 3 games played so far in the conference finals is the intensity. Wow are these guys into these games! It's just fantastic. Heck, Draymond was so fired up Monday night he almost got thrown out in the first quarter. I know some people only watch the playoffs and think that the regular season isn't good or doesn't matter. I think the regular season is great and really enjoy watching games when I can (especially when Duke players are involved) but these playoff games are at another level. I don't think the players could physically and mentally withstand this level of play through 82 regular season games (and many playoff games). I'm not sure I could handle watching a full season of games like this (I was ready to punch Chris Paul in the head Monday night and I generally like State Farm Boy).
    Great points, I was reminded again why I don't like Chris Paul. The "butt elbow" and the overall dirty play from him are annoying, but for some reason he always seems to get a pass. Although I did see them talking about it on ESPN, it seems like us Duke fans are the only ones who remember him as a dirty player.

    I also agree with your second point, the level of effort is remarkable. This intensity, the cockiness, going all out for loose balls, the physical play, the trash talk, the skill, are all reasons that make the playoffs so much fun to watch. In my opinion, the Celtics embody what you speak of. They are physically giving it their all and refuse to be intimidated.

  8. #928
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    As I read this thread I'm reminded that LeBron is just held to a different standard than everyone else. I don't root for the guy and I haven't since 'The Decision' but the question isn't "Is the the best player?", the question is "Is he the best ever?". He gets measured against that second question, MJ, Wilt, Russel, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell, etc. and he's earned that level of respect. But I think that him playing against not just the Celtics but history can have an effect on how people discuss his efforts and how we perceive what he's doing.

    That said, I do think that when he collided with Tatum last night that it took something out of him. Although he put up great numbers, the before and after around that collision were pretty obvious to me. That's not a criticism, he got hit pretty hard and I think a lot of guys would have been done (LeBron strong like OX!).

    A few comments on the playoffs in general. One thing that I've noticed, especially in the 3 games played so far in the conference finals is the intensity. Wow are these guys into these games! It's just fantastic. Heck, Draymond was so fired up Monday night he almost got thrown out in the first quarter. I know some people only watch the playoffs and think that the regular season isn't good or doesn't matter. I think the regular season is great and really enjoy watching games when I can (especially when Duke players are involved) but these playoff games are at another level. I don't think the players could physically and mentally withstand this level of play through 82 regular season games (and many playoff games). I'm not sure I could handle watching a full season of games like this (I was ready to punch Chris Paul in the head Monday night and I generally like State Farm Boy).
    Can we all just agree that the cap needs to be adjusted or fixed? I'm down with that.
    "God gave me some height and ability but didn't necessarily give me lateral quickness or the little things that make a talented defender, but I've worked my butt off, and I think I'm pretty good at it." - Ryan "The White Raven" Kelly

  9. #929
    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    Can we all just agree that the cap needs to be adjusted or fixed? I'm down with that.
    Don't you think teams will still find a way to get around it? And should teams be penalized for drafting well and developing their players?

  10. #930
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    Dec 2007
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    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by kshepinthehouse View Post
    Don't you think teams will still find a way to get around it? And should teams be penalized for drafting well and developing their players?
    Also I’m not sure there’s a cap system that can account for players willingly accepting less money to be able to play together. Every system is designed around the premise that players will want the most money they can get.

  11. #931
    Join Date
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    Northwest Indiana
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    That said, I do think that when he collided with Tatum last night that it took something out of him. Although he put up great numbers, the before and after around that collision were pretty obvious to me. That's not a criticism, he got hit pretty hard and I think a lot of guys would have been done (LeBron strong like OX!).
    I remember the good ole days when I rooted for Bron and thought it would be cool to see him pull a Bo and play tight end for the Browns during the offseason... Now we're talking about arguably the most physically imposing guy in league history being irreparably thrown off his game by a 200lb 19 year old coming in contact with his jaw. Sure, I would have been knocked out, but it's just a "boy who cried wolf" situation at this point; my opinion has been skewed by the hundreds of times I've seen him go full Emmy-reel after get grazed, so mentally I immediately jump to "this is all a production to gain sympathy and/or a built in excuse if we lose." Personally it's tough to feel for the dude after growing up watching MJ get literally smacked around and it just being part of the game. LeBron is still an all-time great and belongs in the MJ discussion, but I guess I have a special place in my heart for the "I'll die on this court before I let you beat me" mentality.

    Like Grayson.

  12. #932
    Join Date
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    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    Also I’m not sure there’s a cap system that can account for players willingly accepting less money to be able to play together. Every system is designed around the premise that players will want the most money they can get.
    Yeah, what needs to be changed about the cap to fix the Warriors situation? Sure, one can look back and say that the cap should have been gradually increased, not jumped all at once allowing the Warriors a perfect window to grab Durant, but aside from that one freak moment (which will not occur in the future as there won't be a TV rights deal jump like that ever again, I suspect) how do you (JNort) propose fixing the cap? What is broken about it that you would change?

    If, as my fine smelling friend indicates in the quoted text, players are willing to take tens of millions less to stay with a team how is the NBa supposed to "fix" a situation like that to break up a team like the Warriors?

    I'm of the belief that the Warriors were only formed by a remarkable run of luck and timing (Steph, Dray, and Klay being historically better than their draft positions projected; Seph gets hurt and signs a deal that looks insanely cheap in retrospect; the cap jumps allowing them room to bring in Durant). I'm not sure anything could be done within the rules to change what happened.

    I also think that while we are seeing the Warriors do something amazing, they are not fated to just win every title for the next several years. The Celtics and perhaps the Rockets or Sixers (if either of them can bring in Lebron) could easily challenge even the greatness that is the Warriors in coming seasons.

    -Jason "Lebron to the Rockets would make the Warriors path to domination really tough with Houston and then Boston (or the Sixers when they sign some other big free agent) in the finals in 2019" Evans
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  13. #933
    Quote Originally Posted by kshepinthehouse View Post

    I'm taking it that you're in the came of those who feel sorry for Lebron because he has such trash teammates? Did Lebron the GM make the wrong moves? He had solid veterans in Rose, Wade, Frye, Crowder, etc and they didn't seem to play as high of a level they are accustomed to. Then they traded everyone but a couple of people, this is what Lebron had to say about his new team:

    https://www.slamonline.com/uncategor...ing-squad-now/

    So now, because they are getting whooped by the Celtics, we are supposed to feel sorry for him or praise him if he can "drag these poor players" to the finals?
    I don't feel sorry for LeBron. I don't "feel" any particular way about his team or his teammates. I just think that it is factually untrue that he doesn't historically make his teammates better.

    Your words about quitting, being difficult to play with, and not feeling sorry for LeBron indicate a level of emotional involvement here that I just don't share. Not to mention calling him out for taking a shoulder to the noggin on a drive.

    When I think "mailing it in" or "difficult to play with" I think Melo, not LeBron.

  14. #934
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I don't feel sorry for LeBron. I don't "feel" any particular way about his team or his teammates. I just think that it is factually untrue that he doesn't historically make his teammates better.

    Your words about quitting, being difficult to play with, and not feeling sorry for LeBron indicate a level of emotional involvement here that I just don't share. Not to mention calling him out for taking a shoulder to the noggin on a drive.

    When I think "mailing it in" or "difficult to play with" I think Melo, not LeBron.
    Ask Chris Bosh if it was difficult to play with Lebron. Why did Kyrie leave? I think that its pretty well known that he can be difficult to play with. It has nothing to do with how much he passes the ball.

  15. #935
    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    James + Wade are equal to Curry + Durant? Perhaps but only because LeBron is that much better. I'm just going by the NBA positional rankings at the time. Wade was never a top 5 guy, in fact at best he was ranked 8th and then slipped into the teens the following years with Bosh always around 15th to 19th. KD and Steph are routinely put 2 through 4 with either Leonard or Davis. I agree that fit is also the thing and it's why I mentioned the shooting aspect.

    You disagree with my overall point about the Dubs? Not sure how you can say that. My overall point is the cap needs to be fixed to stop 1 single team from dominating or even 2 teams.

    Again not sure why you bring up LeBron, this conversation had nothing to do with him. Others brought him up, in fact the only ones bringing him up are those who defend the ridiculousness of the powerhouse that is the Dubs roster. Kind says something if you ask me.
    - No i said I *don't* disagree with your overall point about the Dubs.

    - For LeBron, please check the post history. The whole reason we were even talking about Miami vs GS was me telling LasVegas that LeBron fans are the one set of people I don't sympathize with about competitive balance. If you don't care about that angle, that's fine, but that's all I've ever been saying here. I 100% sympathize with you even if I'm not going to root for my team to blow up, I just don't sympathize with him!

    - I really think you need to check your sources on DWade. NBARank for example only started in 2011 but had DWade #3 that year: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page...op-10-2011-now. He had also been all-NBA first team 2 years in a row before LeBron joined, and averaged 33/6/7 on 56% shooting with 1.6 blocks and 1.6 steals in the previous year's playoffs. The guy was incredible and was as consensus top-5 as these things come.


    A few comments on the playoffs in general. One thing that I've noticed, especially in the 3 games played so far in the conference finals is the intensity. Wow are these guys into these games! It's just fantastic. Heck, Draymond was so fired up Monday night he almost got thrown out in the first quarter. I know some people only watch the playoffs and think that the regular season isn't good or doesn't matter. I think the regular season is great and really enjoy watching games when I can (especially when Duke players are involved) but these playoff games are at another level. I don't think the players could physically and mentally withstand this level of play through 82 regular season games (and many playoff games). I'm not sure I could handle watching a full season of games like this (I was ready to punch Chris Paul in the head Monday night and I generally like State Farm Boy).
    Big +1. Like most people here, watching Duke players in the NBA was mainly how I got started. But these days, the NBA playoffs is my favorite sporting event around. Every one of these teams is just soooo good that I find it a pleasure to watch and say "holy crap". The officiating also changes in the playoffs to let more chippiness go by. I think that plays a part in the intensity going up, and happens for precisely the reasons you say.
    Last edited by darthur; 05-16-2018 at 11:05 AM.

  16. #936
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Mount Kisco, NY
    It's pretty amazing the way Tatum is being discussed based on his play in these playoffs...possible future MVP, one of the few "untouchable" players in the NBA in terms of whether or not he could be traded, etc. While some of it may be hyperbole, it's an amazing run he's been on.

    In the 4th quarter, I think Lebron was just trying to see if he could get some guys going because he knows they can't win even when he puts up 40-10-10 performances unless other guys keep the defense honest. Jackson and Van Gundy, though, were talking a lot about the Cavs sniping at each other on the court and generally being disconnected while the Celtics were hyper-connected. One of Lebron's weaknesses can be his lack of unifying a team in those kinds of situations.


    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I also think that while we are seeing the Warriors do something amazing, they are not fated to just win every title for the next several years. The Celtics and perhaps the Rockets or Sixers (if either of them can bring in Lebron) could easily challenge even the greatness that is the Warriors in coming seasons.
    I agree and for a more mundane reason, it's just really hard to keep doing it year after year. The Pat Riley "disease of more" starts to creep in, key injuries happen, etc. Whenever a pundit says, "X move sets this team up for the next 10 years" I always laugh. What the heck lasts that long in pro sports anymore, let alone the NBA. I feel like 5 years is kind of the max. GSW are in year 4.

  17. #937
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Chesapeake, VA.
    Anybody else feel like the NBA playoffs last too long? There is no other sport that requires two months to determine a champion.

    I remember, fondly, the days in which the first round was a 5-game series. I know it's all about the Tubman's, but I'd like to see the first round, and maybe even the second round, go to 5-game series, and then ramp up to 7-game series when you get to the "final four." Honestly, if you can't beat a team 3 out of 5 maybe you don't belong in the conference championships.

    Maybe I'm all alone on this one, I don't know. I enjoy basketball and I watch a lot of the games, but I still think it's too much.
    A plane takes off from Baltimore and touches down on Bourbon Street

  18. #938
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    Madison, WI
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Anybody else feel like the NBA playoffs last too long? There is no other sport that requires two months to determine a champion.
    No . . . the NBA regular season is too long. The playoffs are perfect. A best of 7 series creates incredible story lines and I love watching how a series plays out between the increasing intensity of the players and the coaching adjustments. You don't really get to see the true character of a player until you've seen them play in a best of 7 series with the season on the line. It's the best postseason format IMO (so hockey is also doing it right).

    March Madness is spectacular for it's randomness, but you're not really determining the best team, just the hottest team (which sometimes is the best team, but not always).
    Last edited by kAzE; 05-16-2018 at 12:31 PM.

  19. #939
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    Northwest Indiana
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    March Madness is spectacular for it's randomness, but you're not really determining the best team, just the hottest team (which sometimes is the best team, but not always).
    Or the team that avoids officials who don't understand the difference between a charge and a block.

    Still salty.

  20. #940
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    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by thedukelamere View Post
    Or the team that avoids officials who don't understand the difference between a charge and a block.

    Still salty.
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