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  1. #2161
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by subzero02 View Post
    I understand why the nickname Buffalo Bron might seem unfair to some people. My apologies to Bills fans; Buffalo only lost 4 championships in their glory days, not 6.
    You do understand that it possible to have a nuanced opinion that both Michael Jordan and LeBron James have a legitimate claim on being the greatest NBA player of all time and that it is possible to marginally prefer one of the two without feeling the need to denigrate the other?

  2. #2162
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    You do understand that it possible to have a nuanced opinion that both Michael Jordan and LeBron James have a legitimate claim on being the greatest NBA player of all time and that it is possible to marginally prefer one of the two without feeling the need to denigrate the other?
    I had someone try to make a similar argument regarding K and Dean...

  3. #2163
    Right now, Jordan is ahead:

    Championships: 6 > 3
    Finals MVPs: 6 > 3
    NBA MVPs: 5 > 4
    Defense MVPs: 1 > 0
    NBA first team: 10 < 12
    Defense first team: 9 > 5

    Note that's mostly individual awards. Using team awards is imperfect, but it's silly to discard them entirely – and I think Lebron hopping around teams specifically to hunt titles makes up the imperfection. Honestly, I even think we should half-count Jordan's NCAA title to make it 6.5 championships (obviously not the same as an NBA championship for many reasons, but it shouldn't be 100% thrown away). I would also say the intangibles favor Jordan, mostly because of guys like Hood and Hill joining Lebron's team and turning to crap, but that obviously is subjective.

    But, Lebron's career is not over yet. I think he can still be in contention for GOAT depending on the next few years... but if he never adds another title or MVP, then Jordan is ahead.

  4. #2164
    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    Right now, Jordan is ahead:

    Championships: 6 > 3
    Finals MVPs: 6 > 3
    NBA MVPs: 5 > 4
    Defense MVPs: 1 > 0
    NBA first team: 10 < 12
    Defense first team: 9 > 5

    I would also say the intangibles favor Jordan, mostly because of guys like Hood and Hill joining Lebron's team and turning to crap, but that obviously is subjective.

    But, Lebron's career is not over yet. I think he can still be in contention for GOAT depending on the next few years... but if he never adds another title or MVP, then Jordan is ahead.
    I dunno, the above isn't unfair but I do think it's gilding the lily a little to count championships and finals mvp's separately. Lebron was the best player on the floor in each of the last four finals, but only won one MVP because his teams lost. Seems like dinging him twice for the same thing. The only years Lebron was in the Finals and wasn't the best player IMO were 2007 (Duncan), and 2011 (the aforementioned dud).

    NBA MVP's - I mean, I feel like either MJ or Lebron could have won it every year. They're probably both underserved in that category. Wouldn't suprise me if Lebron wins 1-2 more, though.

    Lebron's not going to catch MJ for defensive awards. Jordan was the better defensive player.

    I tend to agree that Jordan had better intangibles. I think he had a more indomitable will than Lebron - I just think Lebron's tougher than his detractors give him credit for being. There's a gap between them but it's not as large as some would have us believe.

    Overall, obviously they're both all-world players. I try not to rate guys I didn't see, so I can't speak to Russell or Wilt, but MJ and Lebron are the two best players I've ever seen.

  5. #2165
    Quote Originally Posted by Matches View Post
    I dunno, the above isn't unfair but I do think it's gilding the lily a little to count championships and finals mvp's separately. Lebron was the best player on the floor in each of the last four finals, but only won one MVP because his teams lost. Seems like dinging him twice for the same thing. The only years Lebron was in the Finals and wasn't the best player IMO were 2007 (Duncan), and 2011 (the aforementioned dud).

    NBA MVP's - I mean, I feel like either MJ or Lebron could have won it every year. They're probably both underserved in that category. Wouldn't suprise me if Lebron wins 1-2 more, though.

    Lebron's not going to catch MJ for defensive awards. Jordan was the better defensive player.

    I tend to agree that Jordan had better intangibles. I think he had a more indomitable will than Lebron - I just think Lebron's tougher than his detractors give him credit for being. There's a gap between them but it's not as large as some would have us believe.

    Overall, obviously they're both all-world players. I try not to rate guys I didn't see, so I can't speak to Russell or Wilt, but MJ and Lebron are the two best players I've ever seen.
    Actually, I agree with all of this. Basically, I think they're pretty close but at the end of the day defense and intangibles push Jordan ahead.

  6. #2166
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Albemarle, North Carolina
    My dream scenario for FA this off-season: LeBron, Kawhi and PG13 all on the Lakers with Hart, Ingram and this year's rookie (Who I think should be Mitchell Robinson). Fill out the rest with lower salary guys and I think that team would wreck the Warriors.


    http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/2...ba-free-agency
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" -Stephen Hawking

  7. #2167
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    Actually, I agree with all of this. Basically, I think they're pretty close but at the end of the day defense and intangibles push Jordan ahead.
    I agree with all of it as well. It is hard for me to imagine Jordan reacting to the end of regulation, and the beginning of overtime, in Game 1 of this year’s Finals with anything but extraordinary competitive fury.

  8. #2168
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    On the Road to Nowhere
    Quote Originally Posted by luvdahops View Post
    I agree with all of it as well. It is hard for me to imagine Jordan reacting to the end of regulation, and the beginning of overtime, in Game 1 of this year’s Finals with anything but extraordinary competitive fury.
    But did he have to play 4 years with J.R. Smith? That's enough to break anybody's will.

  9. #2169
    It's definitely enough to break a hand for some players...

  10. #2170
    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    But did he have to play 4 years with J.R. Smith? That's enough to break anybody's will.
    I have heard from more than one source that James wanted J.R. on his team and helped engineer his acquisition. If that is true he (James) has only himself to blame.

  11. #2171
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    I have heard from more than one source that James wanted J.R. on his team and helped engineer his acquisition. If that is true he (James) has only himself to blame.
    Cavs wanted to trade for Shumpert (and Knicks were going to throw in JR). When they asked James, he responded, "Shumpert? I really want JR!" or something like that.

    JR Smith is a talented basketball player. Really good shot (although the streakiest shooter in the NBA), really good defense, high level of athleticism...however, he isn't okay between the ears.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  12. #2172
    Lebron and Beyonce?

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