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  1. #21
    I agree with others than this shouldn't be a huge problem for Duke. Even those Bagley has been the focal point of your offense, he isn't a ball hog or shown to play poorly when he doesnt' get the ball as much as he thinks he should.

    My biggest concern is that Allen has really stepped up in Bagley's abscence and finally looked like the Allen of his sophomore season. I think you need Allen and Bagley playing both at their full potentional to make a run at a title.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    That might be part of it. If you're not selling out to challenge shots, it's easier to get defensive rebounds. Not saying Bagley does this, but I do remember some specific occasions where Bagley had a chance to go after a shot in the paint, but instead just halfheartedly waved his hand at the shot, or just completely allowed the opposing player to get off an uncontested shot. This doesn't happen when Javin and Wendell are the paint. The shot is either going to be altered/blocked, or Javin is going to get called for a foul. (By the way, how freakin good is Wendell Carter on defense? He blocks EVERYTHING.)

    There's clearly a balance that Bagley needs to find. He can't be as reckless as Javin because he needs to stay on the floor, but he also can't just allow uncontested layups.
    Lol. Poor Javin. Even in a zone, he loves to foul (yeah, his foul numbers are way down in the last 3 games, but he still fouls a lot).

    Javin's aggression on D is amazing. He's got that bulldog mentality. I would hate to play O against him; I'd either get Lebroned on a fast break or fouled aggressively. Regardless, Javin will target me...
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I think that has more to do with the fact that we spent the majority of games trying (and failing) to play man-to-man defense and less to do with Bagley's effort.
    When we are starting 4 freshmen, we are asking a lot for them to quickly learn M2M and multiple zones. I'm pleased we seem to now be focusing on zone.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    Lol. Poor Javin. Even in a zone, he loves to foul (yeah, his foul numbers are way down in the last 3 games, but he still fouls a lot).

    Javin's aggression on D is amazing. He's got that bulldog mentality. I would hate to play O against him; I'd either get Lebroned on a fast break or fouled aggressively. Regardless, Javin will target me...
    It reminds me almost of the way Grayson used to play, where you were terrified he was going to kill himself on every play. Javin does that now, but on defense.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    That might be part of it. If you're not selling out to challenge shots, it's easier to get defensive rebounds. Not saying Bagley does this, but I do remember some specific occasions where Bagley had a chance to go after a shot in the paint, but instead just halfheartedly waved his hand at the shot, or just completely allowed the opposing player to get off an uncontested shot. This doesn't happen when Javin and Wendell are the paint. The shot is either going to be altered/blocked, or Javin is going to get called for a foul. (By the way, how freakin good is Wendell Carter on defense? He blocks EVERYTHING.)

    There's clearly a balance that Bagley needs to find. He can't be as reckless as Javin because he needs to stay on the floor, but he also can't just allow uncontested layups.
    Carter is tailor-made for the center in a 2-3 zone. And on the blocks, he's an absolutely elite man-to-man defender too. His only defensive deficiency (and it is a big one) is his ability to defend away from the basket. He is one of the biggest reasons why we are so much better as a zone team than a man-to-man, as he was arguably the least effective big we have (with DeLaurier in the hunt as well because of his proclivity for fouling) at handling high ball screens. Switching to the zone basically eliminated that problem for Carter because it allows him to stay in the paint. Especially so now that we are having the "off-guard" or weakside forward be responsible for defending the free throw line. It is really maximizing what Carter does well - challenging/blocking shots without fouling while also being an uber-elite defensive rebounder. Seriously: Carter is in the 99.7 percentile in shotblock rate and the 99 percentile in defensive rebounding rate. So keeping him near the rim is an absolute godsend to the defense.

    The other thing to note is that the zone has really helped another guy immensely: Trevon Duval. Duval REALLY struggled in ball screen situations, and his on-ball reaction times haven't been great. But he's an uber-elite threat in a "free safety" role. The 2-3 zone has basically mitigated his problems with ball screens while also allowing him to really maximize his ballhawking.

    Basically, I think the two biggest reasons that we are playing so much better defensively of late is because the zone has largely eliminated the weaknesses of Carter and Duval. To a lesser degree, it has helped Allen and Bagley (he played well in zone too, and I suspect we'll see him play well once he returns to form) as well by allowing them to be more ballhawks than isolated as on-ball defenders. And it has helped DeLaurier by cutting down his foul rate and allowing him to ballhawk too. And it has helped White by allowing him to be a positional defender and rebounder rather than a man without a position in man-to-man defense.

    Basically, so many of our players are so perfectly suited to be defenders in a 2-3 zone. It's crazy that we took this long to get there, but I'm glad the staff finally committed to it.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    He is one of the biggest reasons why we are so much better as a zone team than a man-to-man, as he was arguably the least effective big we have (with DeLaurier in the hunt as well because of his proclivity for fouling) at handling high ball screens.
    Yep, it was almost as bad as Okafor. At least with Okafor, we had Jefferson.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Carter is tailor-made for the center in a 2-3 zone. And on the blocks, he's an absolutely elite man-to-man defender too. His only defensive deficiency (and it is a big one) is his ability to defend away from the basket. He is one of the biggest reasons why we are so much better as a zone team than a man-to-man, as he was arguably the least effective big we have (with DeLaurier in the hunt as well because of his proclivity for fouling) at handling high ball screens. Switching to the zone basically eliminated that problem for Carter because it allows him to stay in the paint. Especially so now that we are having the "off-guard" or weakside forward be responsible for defending the free throw line. It is really maximizing what Carter does well - challenging/blocking shots without fouling while also being an uber-elite defensive rebounder. Seriously: Carter is in the 99.7 percentile in shotblock rate and the 99 percentile in defensive rebounding rate. So keeping him near the rim is an absolute godsend to the defense.

    The other thing to note is that the zone has really helped another guy immensely: Trevon Duval. Duval REALLY struggled in ball screen situations, and his on-ball reaction times haven't been great. But he's an uber-elite threat in a "free safety" role. The 2-3 zone has basically mitigated his problems with ball screens while also allowing him to really maximize his ballhawking.

    Basically, I think the two biggest reasons that we are playing so much better defensively of late is because the zone has largely eliminated the weaknesses of Carter and Duval. To a lesser degree, it has helped Allen and Bagley (he played well in zone too, and I suspect we'll see him play well once he returns to form) as well by allowing them to be more ballhawks than isolated as on-ball defenders. And it has helped DeLaurier by cutting down his foul rate and allowing him to ballhawk too. And it has helped White by allowing him to be a positional defender and rebounder rather than a man without a position in man-to-man defense.

    Basically, so many of our players are so perfectly suited to be defenders in a 2-3 zone. It's crazy that we took this long to get there, but I'm glad the staff finally committed to it.
    Can't spork you, but this is right on. However, I don't believe the coaching staff just didn't know how much better we are at zone. I think they knew very early on that zone would be very effective with this group. My hunch is that they just really wanted to see if we could get better at M2M over time. Did it cost us a few wins? Very possible. But in the long run, it doesn't matter. The M2M experiment seems to have failed, so now we're playing zone full time, as many of us predicted we would.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Basically, so many of our players are so perfectly suited to be defenders in a 2-3 zone. It's crazy that we took this long to get there, but I'm glad the staff finally committed to it.
    Yep, we would have been pick & rolled right out of the tournament.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    However, I don't believe the coaching staff just didn't know how much better we are at zone. I think they knew very early on that zone would be very effective with this group. My hunch is that they just really wanted to see if we could get better at M2M over time.
    I think they were hoping to have a 2015 repeat of a team learning to play M2M by March. In January, the 2015 team would have also been pick & rolled right out of the tournament.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    Can't spork you, but this is right on. However, I don't believe the coaching staff just didn't know how much better we are at zone. I think they knew very early on that zone would be very effective with this group. My hunch is that they just really wanted to see if we could get better at M2M over time. Did it cost us a few wins? Very possible. But in the long run, it doesn't matter. The M2M experiment seems to have failed, so now we're playing zone full time, as many of us predicted we would.
    Yeah, I agree that they probably recognized this early on. What I meant was that they finally committed to it and gave up on the dream of converting this to a man-to-man team. You can see it in the progression throughout the season. When things looked bleak within a game, we'd switch to zone, and that would often spur a big run. But the next game, we'd go back to man-to-man and try again. And we tried a number of different solutions in man-to-man, but none seemed to work with any consistency. Finally, with Bagley hurt and Bolden and DeLaurier still playing their way back into shape, we decided to go zone for a full game to survive 40 minutes. And then we had the miraculous performance in zone against Va Tech, and the staff finally decided it was time to commit to the zone.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post

    There's clearly a balance that Bagley needs to find. He can't be as reckless as Javin because he needs to stay on the floor, but he also can't just allow uncontested layups.
    Maybe turning MBIII loose on defense with license to foul would be a great way to get him back on the court. Let him be reckless and foul, and no matter what, we’re guaranteed to get a lot more minutes out of him than we have been while he’s sitting.

  12. #32
    Whatever!!-Regardless!! I like the way we are playing now.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    Put Javin and Marvin in a gene splicing machine. Rename the combined athlete "Jarvin". Allow that player to play 40 min a game.
    One of my favorite old Bill Simmons bits was his suggestion to combine Stromile Swift and the late Lorenzen Wright, for fantasy purposes, into one player named Stromenzen Wrift.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Based on the recent Scheyer interview (shout out to the DBR podcast!) it sounds like the original plan was to use M2M as our primary defense and to use the zone as a change of pace during the game in order to disrupt the offense as they were unprepared for it. The belief was that the zone wouldn't be as effective if used for an entire game because the other team would adjust to it and in the bigger picture teams would game plan around it.

    We finally flipped the switch to now using zone as our primary defense. It remains to be seen whether we will try to sprinkle in some M2M and use THAT as the change of pace. It also remains to be seen whether opponents will eventually find ways to solve the zone once they have more game film on it.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by PackMan97 View Post
    I agree with others than this shouldn't be a huge problem for Duke. Even those Bagley has been the focal point of your offense, he isn't a ball hog or shown to play poorly when he doesnt' get the ball as much as he thinks he should.

    My biggest concern is that Allen has really stepped up in Bagley's abscence and finally looked like the Allen of his sophomore season. I think you need Allen and Bagley playing both at their full potentional to make a run at a title.
    "Nail on the head" post. The team has changed defense since Bagley left; it will take him time to adjust. But, with his attitude and ability, that shouldn't take long. My major concern is Allen... DON"T change a thing about his present role. He is the difference maker in how far we go from here.

  16. #36
    Count me in as not at all worried about integrating Bags. If/when he comes back, it will be a turbo boost.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
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    Dallas, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by OZ View Post
    "Nail on the head" post. The team has changed defense since Bagley left; it will take him time to adjust. But, with his attitude and ability, that shouldn't take long. My major concern is Allen... DON"T change a thing about his present role. He is the difference maker in how far we go from here.
    Well, unfortunately, that's not really going to be possible when Bagley comes back. In order for Grayson to keep playing this current role (taking 15-20 shots a game), Bagley would need to become a secondary option on offense. The key will be in finding the perfect balance between those two. Grayson has to be able to find Bagley in the post, but Bagley can't just continue to be a black hole, either. He needs to try to look for Grayson and help Grayson get some shots, too.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Some really good posts on this thread. Not much to add but one thing that Coach K may have up his sleeve come tournament time would be switching zone defenses. Matter of fact it seems our 2-3 zone is changing according to the opponent and sometimes a certain player. Last night Grayson was motioning to Trevon and Gary where Louisville's really good 3 point shooters were. I have been impressed how Grayson has stepped up in his captains role. His experience has really helped the freshmen. GoDuke!

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    Well, unfortunately, that's not really going to be possible when Bagley comes back. In order for Grayson to keep playing this current role (taking 15-20 shots a game), Bagley would need to become a secondary option on offense. The key will be in finding the perfect balance between those two. Grayson has to be able to find Bagley in the post, but Bagley can't just continue to be a black hole, either. He needs to try to look for Grayson and help Grayson get some shots, too.
    You have hit on what I think will be the most important thing the coaches will have to work on when/if MBIII returns. That's keeping the offense running through Grayson without him losing his aggressiveness. It was apparent Grayson was deferring to Marvin before the injury. Teams learned how to defend Marvin and the ball stopped moving. Sort of like you said, a black hole. If Marvin will pass out of double teams and not try to dribble out of them, the offense will be fine. Of course it would be great if Marvin decided to go to his right and use his right hand. GoDuke!

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    The key will be in finding the perfect balance between those two. Grayson has to be able to find Bagley in the post, but Bagley can't just continue to be a black hole, either. He needs to try to look for Grayson and help Grayson get some shots, too.
    IMO, it was mostly a spacing issue and a lot of that has already been addressed by moving Grayson to the point.

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