Louisville penalties

[hallcity]

Same here. And if the NCAA even tried to force the banner to come down, I'd just leave it up but remove the words "NCAA Champions" or whatever it says. Just a giant banner with 2013 on it. Everyone would know what it means anyway.

Kevin Ware had the best take on it. I probably shouldn't print his quote here, but you can find it on Twitter.

That wouldn't work. When the NCAA vacates wins, they're extremely specific. You have no choice but to remove every last reference to the vacated win, no matter how oblique, from the arena, from press guides and EVERYWHERE else the university controls. There's no wiggle room at all. Anyway, why defend Louisville? Yes, UNC escaped the punishment they deserved but that doesn't mean that Louisville doesn't deserve the punishment they've received.

[mgtr]

Is there any real effort afield to develop some alternative to the NCAA?

[sagegrouse]

Is there any real effort afield to develop some alternative to the NCAA?

Two conflicting observations:

(1) "The NCAA is an organization created by the schools to enforce the rules established by the schools." -- Kevin White. In other words, as Pogo says, "We have met the enemy and he is us." Division I basketball includes 351 programs and is probably unmanageable in terms of taking new directions.

(2) Watch the Commission on Basketball and its recommendations. I would not be surprised to see a much smaller "Division I" come out of this process -- maybe 125-150 schools and to see a more powerful management structure (a "Commish"), which would make it possible to organize constructive change and re-make college hoops.

[Hingeknocker]

That wouldn't work. When the NCAA vacates wins, they're extremely specific. You have no choice but to remove every last reference to the vacated win, no matter how oblique, from the arena, from press guides and EVERYWHERE else the university controls. There's no wiggle room at all. Anyway, why defend Louisville? Yes, UNC escaped the punishment they deserved but that doesn't mean that Louisville doesn't deserve the punishment they've received.

At the risk of being accused of being a Bilas sock puppet, I defend Louisville because the NCAA is indefensible.

Also because, if these misdeeds had been made public, say, prior to the 2012-13 season, a just punishment would not have included forfeiting that entire season. Those players deserved to play, and they won the tournament.

And surely the NCAA isn't drunk on power enough to suggest that they can legislate all references to the year 2013 by a university. Surely.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Two conflicting observations:

(1) "The NCAA is an organization created by the schools to enforce the rules established by the schools." -- Kevin White. In other words, as Pogo says, "We have met the enemy and he is us." Division I basketball includes 351 programs and is probably unmanageable in terms of taking new directions.

People overlook this all the time. The NCAA is an evil entity, yes. But, additionally, the NCAA literally IS the institutions. It is made of and serves as the whim of the members.

It isn't an external sadist organization. It is the members.

We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo

Edit: holy smokes, I literally didn't see the quote, but thought of the same one. I guess I owe you sporks.

[devildeac]

It's my understanding those same rules state that a student-athlete must maintain a certain GPA taking real college coursework, which the entity at the dump on the hump failed to abide by...

and that's all I got to say about that, but it's really none of my business (sorry couldn't find the picture of Kermit holding his coffee cup)

At your service:

41KuY5Re5dL._AC_UL130_.jpg

I'll be here the rest of the week.

[UrinalCake]

Is there any real effort afield to develop some alternative to the NCAA?

Honestly, the closest I’ve seen is the Big Baller league that Lavar Ball is trying to create. Apparently he has approached several top high schoolers about joining, but to my knowledge none have accepted. While Ball is somewhat of a rodeo clown, the notion of some sort of private paid league may actually not be that far away given the NCAA’s current trajectory.

[Hingeknocker]

Honestly, the closest I’ve seen is the Big Baller league that Lavar Ball is trying to create. Apparently he has approached several top high schoolers about joining, but to my knowledge none have accepted. While Ball is somewhat of a rodeo clown, the notion of some sort of private paid league may actually not be that far away given the NCAA’s current trajectory.

My immediate thought was the Big Baller League, but then I remembered an effort to align a pay-for-play college model with HBCUs. I think it's a fantastic idea, and is perhaps slightly more serious and likely to succeed than the Ball version.

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/articl...ketball-league

[BD80]

Honestly, the closest I’ve seen is the Big Baller league that Lavar Ball is trying to create. Apparently he has approached several top high schoolers about joining, but to my knowledge none have accepted. While Ball is somewhat of a rodeo clown, the notion of some sort of private paid league may actually not be that far away given the NCAA’s current trajectory.

You owe apologies to quite a few rodeo clowns.

[uh_no]

Honestly, the closest I’ve seen is the Big Baller league that Lavar Ball is trying to create. Apparently he has approached several top high schoolers about joining, but to my knowledge none have accepted. While Ball is somewhat of a rodeo clown, the notion of some sort of private paid league may actually not be that far away given the NCAA’s current trajectory.

And how would this differ significantly from, or be more successful than, the D league?

[UrinalCake]

And how would this differ significantly from, or be more successful than, the D league?

IMO the players would have to be paid more, and they would have to get significant marketing/exposure. I think those are the two biggest drawbacks to the D league and the reasons why high schoolers don’t just go to the D league now. It’s not worth it to be paid $40k and play in mostly empty arenas when you could instead go to college, play in packed stadiums and on TV with millions of viewers, be showcased on ESPN advertising, and receive tuition, stipend, meals, training, etc.

[oldnavy]

People overlook this all the time. The NCAA is an evil entity, yes. But, additionally, the NCAA literally IS the institutions. It is made of and serves as the whim of the members.

It isn't an external sadist organization. It is the members.

We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo

Edit: holy smokes, I literally didn't see the quote, but thought of the same one. I guess I owe you sporks.

A lot of folks on this board were very pro NCAA for a position they took a while back...

[uh_no]

IMO the players would have to be paid more,

By whom? nobody is interested in minor league basketball.

and they would have to get significant marketing/exposure.

why would someone invest in something nobody wants to watch?

I think those are the two biggest drawbacks to the D league and the reasons why high schoolers don’t just go to the D league now. It’s not worth it to be paid $40k and play in mostly empty arenas when you could instead go to college, play in packed stadiums and on TV with millions of viewers, be showcased on ESPN advertising, and receive tuition, stipend, meals, training, etc.

From a viewers perspective the only difference between college and the D league is the fact that your favorite school is on the front of the jersey. There are plenty of ex-college stars slumming it in the D-leauge. Why doesn't anybody want to watch them?

The colleges hold all the cards here. All of them. There is no interest in watching minor league basketball. The reason the tournament makes gobs of money is fact its tied to schools. Why would people tune in to watch ryan arcidiacono play for nova but not for the windy city bulls? It's because he's playing for nova...not because he's ryan arcidiacono.

The players are a commodity in the college game. We like to treat our players better, but on the whole? They're fungible. Villanova's entire team could be replaced with 12 other guys and people would still watch them. You could swap UNC's team with some D league team, and everyone would watch the UNC team and not the D league.

Say the players went on strike and decided to stop playing...each school could load up with 12 new guys next year, and people would STILL watch. The couple big names who could go straight to the league aside, it turns out that the value of a minor league player is about 40k a year. Whether they're getting that as a salary or as a scholarship is their choice (getting screwed by not actually getting an education aside).

I simply don't see a situation in which an independent league could possibly support, on average, more than the value of a scholarship...and frankly, without the schools, it probably wouldn't be even close. How heavily is the D league subsidized already?

[BigWayne]

That wouldn't work. When the NCAA vacates wins, they're extremely specific. You have no choice but to remove every last reference to the vacated win, no matter how oblique, from the arena, from press guides and EVERYWHERE else the university controls. There's no wiggle room at all. Anyway, why defend Louisville? Yes, UNC escaped the punishment they deserved but that doesn't mean that Louisville doesn't deserve the punishment they've received.

Or you can do it the Carolina Way and just add asterisks. See page 198.

[oldnavy]

By whom? nobody is interested in minor league basketball. why would someone invest in something nobody wants to watch?



From a viewers perspective the only difference between college and the D league is the fact that your favorite school is on the front of the jersey. There are plenty of ex-college stars slumming it in the D-leauge. Why doesn't anybody want to watch them?

The colleges hold all the cards here. All of them. There is no interest in watching minor league basketball. The reason the tournament makes gobs of money is fact its tied to schools. Why would people tune in to watch ryan arcidiacono play for nova but not for the windy city bulls? It's because he's playing for nova...not because he's ryan arcidiacono.

The players are a commodity in the college game. We like to treat our players better, but on the whole? They're fungible. Villanova's entire team could be replaced with 12 other guys and people would still watch them. You could swap UNC's team with some D league team, and everyone would watch the UNC team and not the D league.

Say the players went on strike and decided to stop playing...each school could load up with 12 new guys next year, and people would STILL watch. The couple big names who could go straight to the league aside, it turns out that the value of a minor league player is about 40k a year. Whether they're getting that as a salary or as a scholarship is their choice (getting screwed by not actually getting an education aside).

I simply don't see a situation in which an independent league could possibly support, on average, more than the value of a scholarship...and frankly, without the schools, it probably wouldn't be even close. How heavily is the D league subsidized already?

I think you are underselling the product. Sure there are rooting interests, but if the entertainment factor is not there, I think most fans would tune out. The Duke women have D-U-K-E on their jersey's but not near the following the men do.

[dudog84]

I think you are underselling the product. Sure there are rooting interests, but if the entertainment factor is not there, I think most fans would tune out. The Duke women have D-U-K-E on their jersey's but not near the following the men do.

I don't think that's an apt comparison/analogy. I'm more in tune with uh_no here. Sure some would watch, but the majority (vast majority?) would not. What is the viewership like for AAU games (I honestly don't know, but I bet it doesn't come close to college), and those are high school all-star games with the best players who will be in college in a few months.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

A lot of folks on this board were very pro NCAA for a position they took a while back...

You will have to refresh my memory. I have only been active here for about ten years.

[DukieInKansas]

IMO the players would have to be paid more, and they would have to get significant marketing/exposure. I think those are the two biggest drawbacks to the D league and the reasons why high schoolers don’t just go to the D league now. It’s not worth it to be paid $40k and play in mostly empty arenas when you could instead go to college, play in packed stadiums and on TV with millions of viewers, be showcased on ESPN advertising, and receive tuition, stipend, meals, training, etc.

And yet people say players aren't getting paid for playing ball in college. They just aren't getting cash - college ball is basically a bartering institution. Education, food, lodging, training, tv exposure in exchnage for playing ball for the college.

Not directed to you specifically but you summed up very nicely how they are "paid" to play college ball vs being paid cash to play in the D League.

[PackMan97]

And yet people say players aren't getting paid for playing ball in college. They just aren't getting cash - college ball is basically a bartering institution. Education, food, lodging, training, tv exposure in exchnage for playing ball for the college.

Not directed to you specifically but you summed up very nicely how they are "paid" to play college ball vs being paid cash to play in the D League.

Well, some are getting fancy rental cars instead of an education...it's also worth noting that even at a school like Duke they are getting something valued at maybe $70-80k...where if they were allowed to be in the NBA they'd be getting far more training and TV exposure as well as a very nice minimum salary of $800k+. So 10x in cash what they are getting in non-cash from Duke. Keep in mind as good as Coach K might be, he's coaching for the college game plus he's limited in the amount of time he's allowed to spend with each kid.

[dudog84]

Rick Pitino weighs in:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...ionship-banner