This Week in the ACC: 2/12-2/18

[duketaylor]

"Quite happy to see the Deacs win as well. Look forward to the day all three major NC Universities have great basketball teams. Sadly, State really needs to win @wake to solidify our NCAA resume."

That's funny. Is neither Davidson nor ECU a "major" university?

[PackMan97]

"Quite happy to see the Deacs win as well. Look forward to the day all three major NC Universities have great basketball teams. Sadly, State really needs to win @wake to solidify our NCAA resume."

That's funny. Is neither Davidson nor ECU a "major" university?

Permission to change major to ACC? No offense intended to the other outstanding institutions of higher learning in NC.

[duketaylor]

Permission to change major to ACC? No offense intended to the other outstanding institutions of higher learning in NC.

Granted!!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

There are three hall of fame coaches in the ACC and 13 conference games into his tenure, Coach Keatts is 3-1 against them with a win over each of them.

Big fan of Keatts, thought he was awesome at UNC W and a home run hire for State. That said, the 3-1 start stat is interesting, but not necessarily meaningful. Jim Larranaga has a winning record versus K. And K is 11-1 versus Izzo.

[OldPhiKap]

There are three hall of fame coaches in the ACC and 13 conference games into his tenure, Coach Keatts is 3-1 against them with a win over each of them.

Reason to brag. Would hope the Pack is finally back!

[CDu]

Big fan of Keatts, thought he was awesome at UNC W and a home run hire for State. That said, the 3-1 start stat is interesting, but not necessarily meaningful. Jim Larranaga has a winning record versus K. And K is 11-1 versus Izzo.

Well, Larranaga and Coach K are both fantastic cosches, so it still seems meaningful to me.

[PackMan97]

Big fan of Keatts, thought he was awesome at UNC W and a home run hire for State. That said, the 3-1 start stat is interesting, but not necessarily meaningful. Jim Larranaga has a winning record versus K. And K is 11-1 versus Izzo.

Shall I go see how long it took Herb (1-5 his first season or 1-7 including MD), Lowe (2-8 his first two seasons if you count Gary Williams add 0-3) or Gottfried (0-5 his first season) to get to three wins vs the hall of fame coaches from their day? I left out Robinson since he owned The Cheats and I know we swept them his first season.

Considering all of his predecessors were fired for not being able to beat the better teams, it is meanIngful.

[OldPhiKap]

Well, Larranaga and Coach K are both fantastic coaches, so it still seems meaningful to me.

I agree that Larranaga is one of the better coaches in the conference, easily. The U is a football-first school, so I am guessing that recruiting is a bit hampered by that. Still, he has made 3 of the last 5 NCAA tourneys and may well make it again this year (would be three years in a row).

It's a bit early to proclaim Keatts as the great answer -- Gott made it to the NCAA his first four seasons IIRC before two crash-and-burn seasons, and Sendek made five or six in a row before being run off for boredom. But a promising start, and a great accomplishment in his first go-round. He has brought some pride back to my Wolf Pack Nation friends, and anyone who beats the Cheats is a friend of mine.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Well, Larranaga and Coach K are both fantastic cosches, so it still seems meaningful to me.

I"m gonna respectfully hold back awarding the label of fantastic on Larranaga. I remember back to his amazing run with GW to the Final Four (with some Tar Babies in his path) that he seemed totally clueless as to why this was all happening.

I also have noticed that Miami almost always bombs out in the NCAAs way too early, even when they have really good teams. They share that affliction with Florida State, who at times has scary length and talent. Must be something with Florida.

And I would add that while Larranaga beats K at times, he almost never has a team over all as good as Duke. He can get his guys up for their Super Bowl...the Duke game...but he doesn't seem to be able to make a run when it counts. Dittos Leonard Hamilton.

(as a cultural note and FUN FACT: Larranaga did add an accent mark over the last N in his name when he got to Miami. Apparently he does have Cuban heritage...)

[PackMan97]

It's a bit early to proclaim Keatts as the great answer -- Gott made it to the NCAA his first four seasons IIRC before two crash-and-burn seasons, and Sendek made five or six in a row before being run off for boredom. But a promising start, and a great accomplishment in his first go-round. He has brought some pride back to my Wolf Pack Nation friends, and anyone who beats the Cheats is a friend of mine.

Slow down, State isn't in the NCAAT yet! We still have some winning to do. It is odd that this is the first time I can recall State being on the buble but only needing wins. Usually we have the wins but lack the signature win to impress the committee. This season, we have plenty of strong wins, we only need enough wins to get us into consideration and our strength of wins will get us into the tourney.

I can't tell you how excited I was for Sendek to arrive at State. We actually went to the ACCT final (beating Duke along the way and WON an NIT game. For reals!). Lowe I must say I was less than enthused, but making it to the ACCT finals and the NIT gave us some hope plus recruiting! Gottfried I was also quite excited to see come to Raleigh, we was jobbed in the ACCT against Carolina (but still won two games) and made it to the sweet 16. So, trust me I understand about not getting too excited over the first year results. Been there, done that.

To me, the biggest difference are the quality of wins and the way we've won. Four RPI top 20 wins! Do you know how many losses NC State has had outside of the RPI Top 50? Four and three of them were away from home. Interestingly enough, that's only one more than Duke. So, I'm excited. I don't know what the future will bring. State could easily stumble @Wake, home vs BC and be sitting at home this March. That's what Wolfpack teams of old would do.

[OldPhiKap]

Slow down, State isn't in the NCAAT yet! We still have some winning to do. It is odd that this is the first time I can recall State being on the buble but only needing wins. Usually we have the wins but lack the signature win to impress the committee. This season, we have plenty of strong wins, we only need enough wins to get us into consideration and our strength of wins will get us into the tourney.

I can't tell you how excited I was for Sendek to arrive at State. We actually went to the ACCT final (beating Duke along the way and WON an NIT game. For reals!). Lowe I must say I was less than enthused, but making it to the ACCT finals and the NIT gave us some hope plus recruiting! Gottfried I was also quite excited to see come to Raleigh, we was jobbed in the ACCT against Carolina (but still won two games) and made it to the sweet 16. So, trust me I understand about not getting too excited over the first year results. Been there, done that.

To me, the biggest difference are the quality of wins and the way we've won. Four RPI top 20 wins! Do you know how many losses NC State has had outside of the RPI Top 50? Four and three of them were away from home. Interestingly enough, that's only one more than Duke. So, I'm excited. I don't know what the future will bring. State could easily stumble @Wake, home vs BC and be sitting at home this March. That's what Wolfpack teams of old would do.

Sorry, I was saying that Miami is likely in. Their last five are against Syracuse, @ ND, BC, @ UNC and VT. At 7-6, I would think they finish at least 10-8 although I could see 11-7. 9-9 would be a bad result although stranger things have happened.

State's schedule looks promising as well: 7-6 with @ Wake, BC, @ FSU, @ GT and Louisville. Also think 10-8 likely although you gotta play 'em out.

[PackMan97]

Sorry, I was saying that Miami is likely in. Their last five are against Syracuse, @ ND, BC, @ UNC and VT. At 7-6, I would think they finish at least 10-8 although I could see 11-7. 9-9 would be a bad result although stranger things have happened.

State's schedule looks promising as well: 7-6 with @ Wake, BC, @ FSU, @ GT and Louisville. Also think 10-8 likely although you gotta play 'em out.

9-9 would leave me sweating, but I think we come out of the right side as long as we beat GT and UofL. Why not worry about @Wake? That would likely be a Q2 loss where GT would be a Q3. Winning against UofL is important because they are a bubble team that is SERIOUSLY lacking any significant win outside of @FSU back in early January (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas.../RPI/teamId/97).

Looking at BC's record...WOW! They only have one loss outside of Q1. That's right, 9 Q1 losses and 1 Q2 loss (to VT at home). They've quietly become a very solid team. They play ND, @State, Syracuse, and @FSU. They could be a serious bubble burster...and put together three or four wins, maybe they can get up onto that bubble?

[left_hook_lacey]

Big fan of Keatts, thought he was awesome at UNC W and a home run hire for State. That said, the 3-1 start stat is interesting, but not necessarily meaningful. Jim Larranaga has a winning record versus K. And K is 11-1 versus Izzo.

I think that's meaningful for State in that, I think they'd exchange their recent success, or lack there of, with what MSU has done in the last decade.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I think that's meaningful for State in that, I think they'd exchange their recent success, or lack there of, with what MSU has done in the last decade.

Well I'm a Keatts fan and it is meaningful in that none of their previous 4,5,6 coaches have done that to start. I just think that sometimes these odd head to heads can be attributed to a lot of factors and can be over read by fans and media. K even said as much about the 11-1 record V Izzo.

I remember in the early 90's when K had elevated Duke past NC as a program, the Heel fans kept going back to Dean's Myth (BTW, congrats who ever came up with that) overall record against K - which at the time was built on K rebuilding during Dean's prime. And then we got into periods where Duke was the national program and this game was a bigger deal for Carolina than Duke (total reversal of 70s and early 80s). Carolina was winning about half the gams against Duke over stretches where Duke was accomplishing a lot more than Carolina was.

All of that long windedness to say...head to heads can be screwy and not really indicative of much.

[PackMan97]

All of that long windedness to say...head to heads can be screwy and not really indicative of much.

Unless they are completely one-sided. Gottfried was a combined 5-19 against Carolina and Duke. Sendek was a mind numbing 8-38 against Duke and Carolina. Remember, this is over a stretch of time that included 9 trips to the NCAAT, 4 trips to the ACCT Finals so it's not to say State completely sucked. It also includes the Doh Years which should have been some easy wins.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Unless they are completely one-sided. Gottfried was a combined 5-19 against Carolina and Duke. Sendek was a mind numbing 8-38 against Duke and Carolina. Remember, this is over a stretch of time that included 9 trips to the ACCT, 4 trips to the ACCT Finals so it's not to say State completely sucked. It also includes the Doh Years which should have been some easy wins.

PackMan thanks for those figures, and I was a bit clumsy in my language...what I meant to say, and should have said, is that when a particular coaching match up head to head is at odds with how strong the teams have been, then you shouldn't read much into them. Sendek winning 8 of 46 and Gottfried winning 5 of 24 is probably about right given the relative strengths of the programs in those years. Larranaga winning more than half against K is not.

And K winning 11 of 12 against Izz is mind numbing. I mean, 8-4 or 9-3 would probably be more representative...hopefully I'm making my point better this time.

[gofurman]

I"m gonna respectfully hold back awarding the label of fantastic on Larranaga. I remember back to his amazing run with GW to the Final Four (with some Tar Babies in his path) that he seemed totally clueless as to why this was all happening.

I also have noticed that Miami almost always bombs out in the NCAAs way too early, even when they have really good teams. They share that affliction with Florida State, who at times has scary length and talent. Must be something with Florida.

And I would add that while Larranaga beats K at times, he almost never has a team over all as good as Duke. He can get his guys up for their Super Bowl...the Duke game...but he doesn't seem to be able to make a run when it counts. Dittos Leonard Hamilton.

(as a cultural note and FUN FACT: Larranaga did add an accent mark over the last N in his name when he got to Miami. Apparently he does have Cuban heritage...)

With regard to football schools. FSU. Miami. Clemson. VTech. I would say FSU recruits the best (they have had several MCD AA guys - sometimes as many as UNC ) but does the least w talent relatively. Clemson and VT coach better than FSU but have less talent/recruiting . And Miami does the best overall w combining talent and coaching

That's not a big slam on Hamilton. He has a lock job as FSU is happy making the tourney every year and he recruits so well I think it overcomes his coaching a little bit. And that's ok. Half the battle is recruiting. And he wins that ... I think FSU had 3 pro level guys last year or so? Bacon , XRM and the forward

[PackMan97]

With regard to football schools. FSU. Miami. Clemson. VTech. I would say FSU recruits the best (they have had several MCD AA guys - sometimes as many as UNC ) but does the least w talent relatively. Clemson and VT coach better than FSU but have less talent/recruiting . And Miami does the best overall w combining talent and coaching

That's not a big slam on Hamilton. He has a lock job as FSU is happy making the tourney every year and he recruits so well I think it overcomes his coaching a little bit. And that's ok. Half the battle is recruiting. And he wins that ... I think FSU had 3 pro level guys last year or so? Bacon , XRM and the forward

Hamilton does have an ACC title to his name as well. Winning things always gets you some leeway. It helps that football has returned to prominence. Nothing worse than being an average coach in the off sport when the main sport is struggling, but nothing better when that main sport is winning.

[duketaylor]

but I believe Larranaga took George Mason, not GW (2004?), to the FF. My daughter is a GW grad and my twin boys are at GMU, so I'm forced to know certain things.

I think he's an excellent coach and each and every time we face his team I'm very concerned. Much like McKillop, Jon Chaney in the day and a few others. Boeheim is another. Coach Knight, also.

[Bob Green]

Saturday
[36]Miami (7-5) (-5) hosts [46]Syracuse (-4) (12:00, CBS)
[114]Georgia Tech (4-8) (+4) hosts [40]Virginia Tech (7-5) (12:00, ESPN2)
[81]Boston College (5-7) (+1) hosts [37]Notre Dame (5-7) (4:00, ACCNE)
[90]Wake Forest (2-11) (-1) hosts [59]NC State (6-6) (4:00, ACCNE)
[28]Louisville (8-5) (+1) hosts [10]North Carolina (8-5) (8:15, ESPN)

There are several key games today in the fight for position in the conference standings and tournament seeding. For starters, the three teams at 7-6 (Miami/Virginia Tech/N.C. State) all play games they should win but two of the three (Virginia Tech/N.C. State) will have to win on the road and that has been a big challenge in the ACC this season. Whichever of the three win and improve to 8-6 will find themselves tied in the standings (5th place) with the loser of the Louisville vs. North Carolina game.* While I desire to avoid the "must win game" moniker, the point in the season where teams must win to secure a double bye in the ACCT has arrived.

* North Carolina will have a half game lead at 9-6 if they lose.

I'm looking forward to another full day of ACC basketball.