Favorite Player Poll - Shelden vs. Heyman

[JasonEvans]

In an effort to speed things along a tiny bit, and because both active polls today are total blowouts, I am going to post a third poll that may be a bit closer.

This one pits our #13 seed versus the #20 seed and is a classic battle between the 2nd-youngest play in our poll (JJ is about one year younger than Shelden) and the 2nd-oldest player still around (Groat turns 77 next week).

It is 24-year old Shelden Williams (he just turned 24 3 days ago) against 66-year old Art Heyman.

--Jason "can Art pull the upset?" Evans

[JasonEvans]

We all know Shel's impressive credentials and watched his amazing career, but I think it only fair to post some info about Art for the newcomers...

He is one of the very few people to ever win the Most Outstanding Player award in the NCAA Tourney without having his team with the tourney title. The year was 1963 and it was the same year Art won pretty much every award a player could including all the national Player of the Year awards. He was an unanimous first-team All-ACC selection all 3 seasons that he played basketball (freshmen were not elligible back then).

His stats are ridiculous-- he was a double-double machine averaging more than 25 points and 10 rebounds per game every year of his career. Had there been freshman elligibility back then, JJ's quest to be the all-time leading scorer in Duke history would have been a bit harder to achieve.

His teams finished in the top ten all 3 years he played and they made the Final Four his senior season... the first time a Duke team made it to the last weekend of the college hoops season.

Perhaps most importantly, Art single-handedly took the Duke-UNC rivalry to legendary heights with his fist-fight with Larry Brown in 1961. you can read more about his legendary career: here, in his profile at the Jewish Hall of Fame.

--Jason "I am torn... I love Shel and he was THE LANDLORD but Art was such a great player and such a fighter!!" Evans

[RepoMan]

Perhaps most importantly, Art single-handedly took the Duke-UNC rivalry to legendary heights with his fist-fight with Larry Brown in 1961.

To me, this is the clincher. Heyman has to win.

[EarlJam]

Perhaps most importantly, Art single-handedly took the Duke-UNC rivalry to legendary heights with his fist-fight with Larry Brown in 1961.

'nuff said. Vote Heyman!

-EarlJam

[Lord Ash]

25 and 10 every year?

Those are ridiculous numbers. Art has my vote.

[DukieInKansas]

To me, this is the clincher. Heyman has to win.

Got my vote for that also - but did enjoy watching Shelden play.

[SilkyJ]

Sheld was just such a force inside. We would leave him on island to guard the other teams big, and also help out when we would get beat on the perimeter. He won countless games through blocking/altering would be layups.

I am also torn b/c Art was one of the all-time greats, and what Jason left out about the fight with Larry Brown is that two used to be buddies (and teammates I think) in High School.

In the end, sheld was my classmate I watched 95% of the games he played in Cameron, so PAY YOUR RENT!

[dukeENG2003]

As much as I like how Heyman went after Larry Brown (I'd like to too!), I've gotta go with the nice guy here. Shelden is simply one of the nicest young men to come through Duke, was overshadowed in his career here, accomplished incredible things, and did so with great humility. I was about to vote for the old guy again, since I was worried they lose out, but in this case, I think too many people are voting for the old guy. Shel was a force, a true showcase of Coach Wo's teachings to his big men, and the greatest shot blocker in the history of the ACC. He was part of the reason our on ball defense was so poor last year: people were spoiled, they were used to shel bein there to bail them out

[JasonEvans]

After what I wrote about him earlier in the thread, I was all set to vote for Heyman, but then I looked at the question in the poll and the aim of this thing and I reconsidered.

This is not for the best Dukie (and Heyman would very much be in the running were that the case), it is for my favorite Dukie. Shelden wins that matchup for me. Aside from some numbers and some stories written about him, I have very little connection to Art Heyman. I witnessed Shelden Williams sweat and bleed and battle for Duke University for 4 years.

There has never been a more apropos nickname for a Dukie than The Landlord. He owned the paint and you PAID YOUR RENT if you came in there. Look at how his play changed and evolved over his 4 years at school and you see how hard he worked on all aspects of his game. By the time he was a senior, he had mastered being aggressive while not picking up fouls. And, he was a double-double machine in an era where such things just do not happen very often anymore.

So, I voted for Shel. I have a feeling that after an inital burst for Art, there is going to be a bit of a Shel battle-back from the masses. This one will be a close one!!

--Jason "I am having sooo much fun with this!!" Evans

[EarlJam]

I know I'm likely to get killed for saying this but I always felt Shelden just lacked, to use K's term, the "mother f@#$er" instinct. If he had that, combined with J.J., I think Duke could have won it all with that team.

It's not a slam on Shelden. He was awesome, and I love the guy. It just seemed to me that he lacked consistent (key word) intensity and a "refuse to lose" attitude.

Anyone else share this view?

-EarlJam

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Agree 100% Jason. The historian in me wants Art to win. He comes off as such a great character in every interview/discussion I've seen, (even the sissy-blue bible "To Hate Like This...") and he's an integral part of Duke history that is too-often ignored.

That said, I never saw him play, met him, or even knew anyone who spent any significant time with him. I did watch/meet/etc. Shel and he was one of the nicest and most courageous players we've had. Dogged with some truly horrifying allegations, he showed everyone his true character in four amazing years. On the court he was without equal (at least that's what the record books say) but he was even better off the court. He played on an island and was mostly overshadowed for all four seasons, but rejected NBA $$ twice to guard the Duke basket.

My head says Heyman, but my heart, and my vote goes to Shel.

[CameronBlue]

I know I'm likely to get killed for saying this but I always felt Shelden just lacked, to use K's term, the "mother f@#$er" instinct. If he had that, combined with J.J., I think Duke could have won it all with that team.

It's not a slam on Shelden. He was awesome, and I love the guy. It just seemed to me that he lacked consistent (key word) intensity and a "refuse to lose" attitude.

Anyone else share this view?

-EarlJam

I do. This is a vote about your favorite player, subjective almost by definition so perceptions figure more prominently than they might ordinarily. But to look up into the rafters or walk down the Hall of Fame in Cameron and compare Shelden to others whose numbers have been retired--well something just seems to be missing. Whether it's toughness or comparable talent I'm not certain. Shelden was a workhorse, he did what was asked, he was a formidable force in the paint. But Laettner, Williams, Hurley, Hill Battier et al, distinguised themselves in moments when leadership, initiative and innovation was needed. Those moments are not just about executing a play called from the bench, doing your part. It's rising above what's expected and being a leader. It's about Laettner and The Shot and a hundred other moments, Hurley keeping Duke in the game during the first half against Indiana when Laettner had been neutralized and his 3 against UNLV, Battier's backhanded tip-in and his crafty defensive adjustments, Williams role in "Gone in 54 seconds", JJ abusing Texas in the Garden, JD the entire 86 season...there are no moments frozen in time that live in the imagination and solidify Shelden's personage as a giant among men. Not to disparage his contribution to Duke's success in the least, but I was a little surprised his number was retired. His accomplishments to me just don't stand out above many others like Banks, Alarie, Boozer, Chief (think of his importance to the 94 title run)..I'm sure there are others.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Someone smarter than me (so just about anyone) noted that Shel was either going to be the greatest player without his jersey retired or the least great player with his jersey retired. That about sums it up for me.

He was REALLY good, set a bunch of records, and was, IMO, very underrated/overshadowed for his entire career (some guy named "John Clay" or something playing at the same time...) I agree with others, however, that he was never really transcendent.

I don't really know the answer to the jersey issue, but I do know that, however "great" he was as a player, he was unquestionably one of the great people to suit up for us. He improved every season, sacrificed his numbers and star for team success, and played with pride and passion every second he was on the court. As such, he's one of my favorites.

[throatybeard]

I would say very few players truly possess the MoFo instinct.

[JBDuke]

We all know Shel's impressive credentials and watched his amazing career, but I think it only fair to post some info about Art for the newcomers...

He is one of the very few people to ever win the Most Outstanding Player award in the NCAA Tourney without having his team with the tourney title. The year was 1963 and it was the same year Art won pretty much every award a player could including all the national Player of the Year awards. He was an unanimous first-team All-ACC selection all 3 seasons that he played basketball (freshmen were not elligible back then).

His stats are ridiculous-- he was a double-double machine averaging more than 25 points and 10 rebounds per game every year of his career. Had there been freshman elligibility back then, JJ's quest to be the all-time leading scorer in Duke history would have been a bit harder to achieve.

His teams finished in the top ten all 3 years he played and they made the Final Four his senior season... the first time a Duke team made it to the last weekend of the college hoops season.

Perhaps most importantly, Art single-handedly took the Duke-UNC rivalry to legendary heights with his fist-fight with Larry Brown in 1961. you can read more about his legendary career: here, in his profile at the Jewish Hall of Fame.

--Jason "I am torn... I love Shel and he was THE LANDLORD but Art was such a great player and such a fighter!!" Evans

While I happily agree that Heyman is one of the greatest players in Duke history, and I celebrate the fact that he spurned Carolina to attend Duke, hit that little pipsqueak Brown, and put up some flat-out amazing numbers for a guy his size, I can't consider him a "favorite".

Heyman's career at Duke was over before I was born, and my only knowledge of him comes from a few clips of film, some photo stills, and written descriptions of his play and his life. I'd love to shake his hand, buy him a drink, and sit for hours to hear him tell stories about the glory days.

In contrast, I saw every game of Shelden's Duke career. From even before he enrolled, when there were questions about his character and whether or not he'd even end up in a Duke uniform, all the way through to his stellar senior year when he was an All-American, a dominant interior force that set Duke career records for rebounds and blocked shots, and a young man that had proven his character on and off the court. I spent many, many hours in Shelden's virtual presence.

Maybe it's just the illusion of closeness that TV brings, or maybe it's my own delusion of still being part of the Duke team, but whatever the cause, I feel much more connected to Shelden than I ever did to Heyman. (Notice, I even refer to one by first name, the other by last...) No matter how great the player, in a poll of "favorites", Shelden wins over Heyman.

[micah75]

I would say very few players truly possess the MoFo instinct.

And there's a lot to be said for the quiet, but steady, work-horse type of player who does all the dirty work down low which enables guys like JJ put up the great numbers and receive the brunt of the limelight. Tim Duncan is sometimes branded as an "emotionless" player, but he's living proof that you don't have to be a screamer or a showboat in order to be TOUGH. And make no mistake, Shelden was TOUGH even if it seemed he didn't wear his heart on his sleeve. I guess being flashy will buy you extra credit in the eyes of some, but the lunch-pail work ethic of a guy like Shelden shouldn't be perceived as a negative, IMHO.

[greybeard]

Sheld was just such a force inside. We would leave him on island to guard the other teams big, and also help out when we would get beat on the perimeter. He won countless games through blocking/altering would be layups.

I am also torn b/c Art was one of the all-time greats, and what Jason left out about the fight with Larry Brown is that two used to be buddies (and teammates I think) in High School.

In the end, sheld was my classmate I watched 95% of the games he played in Cameron, so PAY YOUR RENT!

They actually were fierce rivals in high school, and started duking it out back then, with Art playing for Oceanside and Larry playing for Long Beach, neighboring towns. The amazing thing about Heyman was that he scored all those points even though he was not a particularly good shooter. Came home to haunt him in the pros. Incredibly strong, great dribbler, especially for a man of his size, and he was indeed a man among boys.

Watched him shoot around one afternoon when I was a freshman in high school and did not believe what I was seeing. I'd take Heyman without blinking.

[77devil]

One could argue that the Bubas era first put Duke on the national stage and Art Heyman was the key, big time recruit. The fight with Larry Brown, the biggest whiner of all time among a long list of Carolina complainers, seals the vote for me

[dw0827]

I would say very few players truly possess the MoFo instinct.

My brother was at Duke during Heyman's reign and, to hear him tell it, Heyman was absolutely full of MoFo instinct. Loaded with it. Tough. Hard as nails. Nasty. It's what made him so productive . . .

[mapei]

I'm going with Shel. Career leader in rebounds and blocks, hey, that's a big deal. And such a nice guy. One would rather not have to make the choice but, if I have to, I'm paying the rent.

Not to mention Candace Parker!