View Poll Results: Which of these guys is your favorite Dukie?

Voters
153. You may not vote on this poll
  • Shelden Williams

    80 52.29%
  • Art Heyman

    73 47.71%
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Results 21 to 40 of 43
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by dukeENG2003 View Post
    He was part of the reason our on ball defense was so poor last year: people were spoiled, they were used to shel bein there to bail them out
    What does "people [being] spoiled" have to do with our defense being bad? Even granting that, how in the world is that Shelden's fault?

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, North Carolina

    Art Heyman

    This is a terrible choice to make, but I gotta go with Art. He put Duke on the basketball map in many ways. If you haven't read Pat Conroy's "My Losing Season" there's a great description of Art Heyman in that book.

    Hate to vote against Shel, though. Tough choice.

  3. #23

    art

    This is a tough one for Art ... how can he be the favorite player for the 90 percent of voters on this poll who never saw him play?

    As I noted in my Carrawell/Brand comments, this isn't a poll to pick the BEST Duke player ... as good as Landlord was, Heyman was better. He was the first ACC player to win any legitimate national player of the year awards (UNC claims one for Rosenbluth, but all he won was the bogus Helms Foundation Award -- Chet Forte won all the legit awards in '57). Heyman swept every major award -- AP, UPI, Basketball Writers, Sporting News and Helms.

    And for the person that noted the Shelden is Duke's all-time leading rebounder ... well, he did end up with more career rebounds than Art -- 1,262 to 833. Of course, when you realize that Shelden played in 139 games to Art's 79, you might understand that Heyman actually averaged 10.9 rebounds a game for his career -- significantly more than Shelden's average of 9.1.

    Plus his three year scoring averages of 25.2, 25.3 and 24.9 rank as the 4th, 6th and 7th best season averages in Duke history ... his career average of 25.1 ppg. is the best in Duke history -- and more than five points a game better than J.J. Redick, the "leading scorer" in Duke history.

    We only have sporadic assist and blocked shots stats from Heyman's era. He was actually the team's best playmaker -- a sort of point forward in the Grant Hill, Danny Ferry mold. They did keep assists in ACC Tournament games in those days, so we know that Heyman recorded the first triple double in Duke history when he had 21 points, 18 rebounds and 10 assists in a 1963 tourney win over Virginia.

    You've got to appreciate what Heyman meant to the Duke-Carolina rivalry. When he switched from a UNC commitment to a Duke commitment, he became the target of a brutal campaign of character assassination orchestrated by UNC's Frank McGuire. When Heyman played as a freshman against the Tar Babies, he was showed by anti-semetic curses and late in the game, he was cold-cocked by a jerk named Dieter Krause. As a soph in 1961, before the fight with Brown, Heyman was spit on several times by Doug Moe ... as for the famed fight itself, he was merely defending himself. Films showed that Brown threw the first punch ... Heyman responded and while he and Brown were dueling, UNC reserve Donnie Walsh (the future GM of the Indiana Pacers) came up from behind and slugged him.

    The ACC suspended Brown and Walsh ... but also suspended Heyman the rest of the season for defending himself.

    Later, McGuire hired a private detective to shadow Art on spring break ... ah, it still makes me angry. Nice to recall that Art got his revenge. He never lost to UNC again after the fight, and he finished his career with a career-high 40 points in his senior day game against the Heels.

    Again, I don't expect this to change anybody's mind. And I'm not sure Art ever was as popular as his teammate, Jeff Mullins (everybody -- even opposing fans -- loved Mullins).

    Art was a fun-loving guy (he and Verga were the two biggest party animals of the 60s) and he was a MF on the court. He and Laettner were probably the two most aggressive, take-no-prisoner style players in Duke history.

    I certainly don't blame any of you young guys who want to vote for Shelden. I just want to make sure that you understand that Heyman was a great, GREAT player -- even if his image does seem to fade over the years.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Rougemont Nebulae

    Thanks

    That's one of the better posts I've read on this board for quite a while. Thanks.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    I should vote for Shelden since I actually saw him play, but Heyman's contribution to the rivalry is enormous and has actually had a huge trickle down effect on the rivalry and it's perceptions. It's probably had a huge effect on our lives in that regard. Have to recognize that. I love Shelden, he's easily one of my favorite Dukies, but have to give Heyman the vote here.

    Wow, this vote is like my personal national semi-final for favorite Dukie.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    People, we have another nail-biter on our hands. With just 12 hours until the polls close, the two warriors in this poll are seperated by just 4 votes.

    It has been a classic see-saw battle. Hayman jumped out to an early lead. I saw him up as much as 10 votes at one point when about 35 or so votes had been cast. Then Shelden came storming back and I saw him with at least a 12 vote lead with about 80 votes cast. Now Shel's lead has dwindled to just 4 with about 130 votes cast.

    Can the Landlord hold on? There figures to be little voting overnight but the early morning polls pushed Duhon over the top yesterday. Will the early morning voters again turn the tide or confirm what is already happening?

    --Jason "I just hope no one files a lawsuit for a re-count" Evans

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Santa Fe, TN

    Age bias

    Too many of DBR posters never saw an earlier generation play. While some may see us as "fuddy-duddy's", many of us have a perspective based on years of following Duke. Heyman, Mullins, Vacendak, Kennedy, Vandenberg, Lind, Denton, Billerman - there a host of people that made Duke great. That doesn't take away from more recent players, but it doesn't mean more recent players were better.

    Teton Jack

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Rougemont Nebulae

    That's what's bittersweet about this poll.

    My sister, much, much (much) older than I matriculated in the early 60s. I can remember straining to the pull the names of Dave Golden, Rick Katherman, Steve Vacendak, Dick Divenzio, Bob Fleischer, Mike Lewis, Bob Verga, Hack Tison and Randy Denton from out of the background static and 100,000W station bleedover on my scratchy little transistor radio. Those names were of mythical proportions to a 4 year-old, bigger than Mantle and Maris. It was Randy Denton facing down Dan Issel of Kentucky and Bob Lanier of St. Bonaventure, Marin and Mullins ripping it from 22, Verga driving the lane like a madman. It's sad that this poll diminishes what those stars contributed to the Duke tradition and fanbase. Predictable, but a little sad.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesterfield, Va.
    I love Shelden, but, I was 15 in 1963 and Heyman was The Man. I saw him play on TV and in person. Met him later in life and he is a great person. My all time Duke favorite.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by cniedringhaus View Post
    Too many of DBR posters never saw an earlier generation play. While some may see us as "fuddy-duddy's", many of us have a perspective based on years of following Duke. Heyman, Mullins, Vacendak, Kennedy, Vandenberg, Lind, Denton, Billerman - there a host of people that made Duke great. That doesn't take away from more recent players, but it doesn't mean more recent players were better.

    Teton Jack
    That's 4 of the 7 polls with this complaint. I think my prediction of 12 of 16 may be a little bit too high, but not by much.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Van Nuys, CA
    I met him in Durham and he had Thanksgiving at our house on Urban Ave and brought Jeff Mullins and 2 hot Duke women.I saw his final game at Duke Indoor stadium against Billy Cunningham. He scored 40 points and had 24 rebounds. That final game on his home court will never be matched by any Duke basketball player. I think he connected with Frank McGuire's lower region's in the Larry Brown fight.I would love to go to his bar in Manhattan. I am surprised that someone doen't make a film on his over the top behaviorwhile at Duke.Eddie Cameron didn't like him and that is why it took so long to retire his jersey.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    About 150 feet in front of the Duke Chapel doors.
    Quote Originally Posted by cniedringhaus View Post
    Too many of DBR posters never saw an earlier generation play. While some may see us as "fuddy-duddy's", many of us have a perspective based on years of following Duke. Heyman, Mullins, Vacendak, Kennedy, Vandenberg, Lind, Denton, Billerman - there a host of people that made Duke great. That doesn't take away from more recent players, but it doesn't mean more recent players were better.

    Teton Jack
    Please remember that this is NOT a poll asking who was the better player. It is, instead, a poll asking voters to pick their FAVORITE player. It is a much more subjective answer, and as I described in my earlier post, it is to be expected that younger voters will tend to pick younger players, as they have a much more significant connection to those they saw play.
    JBDuke

    Andre Dawkins: “People ask me if I can still shoot, and I ask them if they can still breathe. That’s kind of the same thing.”

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The City of Brotherly Love except when it's cold.
    Quote Originally Posted by cniedringhaus View Post
    Too many of DBR posters never saw an earlier generation play. While some may see us as "fuddy-duddy's", many of us have a perspective based on years of following Duke. Heyman, Mullins, Vacendak, Kennedy, Vandenberg, Lind, Denton, Billerman - there a host of people that made Duke great. That doesn't take away from more recent players, but it doesn't mean more recent players were better.

    Teton Jack
    Billerman? I would put Gary Melchioni in that sentence but not Kevin Billerman.

  14. #34

    Dieter Krause

    Olympic - Your post on Heyman is terrific. Your description of him as a point forward fits my memory. He was a real load near the basket even though he was only 6-5. In some ways (strength, ability to get shot off against taller players, good passer and an unbelieveable competitor), he reminded me of Elgin Baylor.

    You mentioned his "fight" with Dieter Krause of UNC during a freshmen game. My dad was stationed in Norfolk in the late 50's and I attended the same high school as Krause. I played for the JV while he played for the varsity as a junior. He was generally regarded as the top player in the Tidewater area but the varsity coach was always on his rear to be more agressive. He often gave some of us a ride home and he was very soft spoken. Later, after we moved to Northern Virginia I read of the fight and the mention that Krause sucker punched Heyman. I couldn't believe it at the time. Perhaps it was the hate between the schools, the fact that Art was Jewish, or just a stupid mistake. Who knows?

    gw67

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Triangle
    Oly makes a great point. I love Shelden, but Art not winning this poll almost seems, well, there is no way Art would have ever been a loser in any first round.

  16. #36
    This is not a close contest. Heyman by far. In my opinion, Shelden was a very good player who did not rise to the level of greatness. This is not to say he didn't give it his all. Of course he did. But his talent level was certainly not on a part with Heyman's, one of the all-time greats.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    I am going to be busy at 10am, I think, so I may need to close things a few minutes early. If you are waiting until the last minnute to vote... do it NOW!

    -Jason

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    The arguements on either side were so compelling, but a late surge for Shelden put him over the top. This poll is closed.

  19. #39
    i sure wish you kept this open a little longer jason. have been away from computer a couple of days and missed several of these things. i would have picked artie.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by grossbus View Post
    i sure wish you kept this open a little longer jason. have been away from computer a couple of days and missed several of these things. i would have picked artie.
    Sorry, but we have many polls to go. I simply have to keep them moving along. Plus, the time limit and the race to the finish are sometimes fun in these close races.

    --Jason "if it halps, as you can see, one or even two or three more votes would not have mattered here-- unlike the Duhon-Alarie poll" Evans

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