Duke @ Florida State

[Bob Green]

4:08 left in the 1st half and Duke is down 6-0. FSU just missed a FG. If we can hang around, you never know....

[formerdukeathlete]

4:08 left in the 1st half and Duke is down 6-0. FSU just missed a FG. If we can hang around, you never know....

2 passes were off target, miss-thrown, and we were 3 and done.

[chrishoke]

9-0 at half - less than 50 yards offense

[Bob Green]

Well it is 16-0 now so the game is starting to slip away. We need to mount a momentum changing touchdown drive or this game is going to be over.

[YmoBeThere]

Looks like at 22-0 with little to no offense, this one could be over.

[chrishoke]

Looks like at 22-0 with little to no offense, this one could be over.

it was over when the chief stuck his flaming spear at the 50 before kickoff

[throatybeard]

9-0 at half - less than 50 yards offense

You give me that, and I say the score is better than I thought we'd do.

[chrishoke]

You give me that, and I say the score is better than I thought we'd do.

another sign of the great improvement of our football team. i need a therapist

[Uncle Drew]

While listening to the game tonight on Yahoo, one thing became crystal clear about Duke football. Vince Oghobaase had a MONSTER game and outplayed his team mates as well as every player in an FSU uniform. As the only five star (that I know of) recruit in Duke football history it shows how much difference in talent there is between a five star and a two or three star. While we are all disappointed in another L in the loss column. I hope Oghobaase's performance didn't go unnoticed by the fans, media and his team. This guy is going to be playing on Sundays, mark my words! When other schools are getting 3, 4, 5....10 five stars EVERY year; it's easy to see why Duke is having a hard time playing catch up. (And those guys often sit out a season red shirting.) Great game Vince, you played like a champion even if your team didn't win.

[CameronBlue]

When other schools are getting 3, 4, 5....10 five stars EVERY year; it's easy to see why Duke is having a hard time playing catch up. (And those guys often sit out a season red shirting.) Great game Vince, you played like a champion even if your team didn't win.

This is what the more critical fans are tired of hearing but what remains the immutable truth about Duke football. Others performed admirably as well, judging by the radio broadcast, Chris Davis, Mike T. I'm sure the "experts" will brutalize Roof for the anemic offense however.

[YmoBeThere]

This is what the more critical fans are tired of hearing but what remains the immutable truth about Duke football.

Though I don't follow the college football recruiting services, we aren't the only school to face this issue are we? One on our schedule that I would guess is in the same boat is Navy, another I would throw out is Vanderbilt. Or how about Wake Forest? And the team we beat, Northwestern? Are we really that unique in this situation?

[chrishoke]

Though I don't follow the college football recruiting services, we aren't the only school to face this issue are we? One on our schedule that I would guess is in the same boat is Navy, another I would throw out is Vanderbilt. Or how about Wake Forest? And the team we beat, Northwestern? Are we really that unique in this situation?

No, we are not - and Wake Forest, with no 5 star players, has beaten the b ig bad noles 2 years in a role, last shutting them out.

[arnie]

Who cares about improvement this year since we are "bowling" in 2008!! I can't wait because we will beat many teams next year that we could not compete with this year. I hear the restrooms may be improved next year also.

Thank God we have JA at the helm

[Uncle Drew]

Though I don't follow the college football recruiting services, we aren't the only school to face this issue are we? One on our schedule that I would guess is in the same boat is Navy, another I would throw out is Vanderbilt. Or how about Wake Forest? And the team we beat, Northwestern? Are we really that unique in this situation?

No, Duke is certainly not alone in having difficulty recruiting 5 star recruits. And the truth is being able to consistently bring in multiple five star recruits every year is the rarity in college football. (And even then not a guarantee of BCS games, see FSU, Penn St, ND.) And there is something to be said for signing a 2, 3 or 4 star recruit and teaching that guy to be the best player he can be by his senior year. Every school is also looking for diamonds in the rough who might end up being an NFL level player eventually. But you watch games and you can see Vince has talent you are born with and he has trained and studied to be the player he is. You can sign a circus midget and he can be dedicated to improving, but he's never going to attain that special player level. Vince and that type of player have God given talent and strength. (And in Vince's case intelligence!)

I'm not bashing the rest of the team or the coaching staff at all. I honestly believe they want to win and leave it all on the field every Saturday. But you give Coach K, John Wooden or Dean Smith some less talented players and they aren't going to have the records they have. Remove a Bill Walton, Christian Laettner or James Worthy from their stable of players and all the coaching in the world isn't going to add up to the same amount of wins the seasons they played. It works the same way in football, but on a MUCH larger scale and a LOT more holes to fill. A team may be as strong as it's weakest link, but a few "special" players can elevate a teams strength. It's a lot easier to do in basketball where one guy can make a huge difference. As for Wake, Vandy, Navy and Northwestern. Look at their records over the last 25 years and they aren't much better than Duke's. Sure they have won a conference title once or twice and maybe played in a bowl game. 1989 was a good year for Duke, so was a few years later under Goldsmith. But compare those schools over the same period of time with the FSU's, NB's, and OSU's out there and recruiting "special" players is the main reason they have had more success than failure.

[YmoBeThere]

Just a point of reference on where we were in 2003. Not a fan of Doyel's(okay, I'm a Doyel hater) but it brings up several points that I have found interesting:

http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegefootball/story/6820878

1) We are on the exact same trajectory we were under Franks
2) Barry Wilson and Fred Goldsmith both had better records than I recalled. Sure you can debate Goldsmith's first year, but if you attribute it to Barry Wilson, then I think you should attribute Carl Franks first season to Goldsmith
3) Many more coaches were interested in the job than many of us would have believed. Are they Pete Carroll, et al.? Nope...but interest nonetheless.
4) I think 3-4 wins a season is a reasonable expectation
5) Would you ever really want to do what Greg Doyel says to do?

Also, while you note a 25 year cycle, I think that time frame is much too large to compare what is going on in college football. Programs are rising and falling in much faster cycles. See Arizona in the mid 90's. Also, as their coaches have aged and changed, some of the traditional powers have struggled in recent years, creating opportunities for others: a) FSU, b)PSU, c)ND, d)Miami.

Does anyone know our record versus similarly challenged schools over the last 10 years? I don't have detailed win losses by opponent over that time frame. I got a program at the Duke VA Tech game this year but was disappointed it didn't have more information on our historical performance.

[Uncle Drew]

Just a point of reference on where we were in 2003. Not a fan of Doyel's(okay, I'm a Doyel hater) but it brings up several points that I have found interesting:

http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegefootball/story/6820878

1) We are on the exact same trajectory we were under Franks
2) Barry Wilson and Fred Goldsmith both had better records than I recalled. Sure you can debate Goldsmith's first year, but if you attribute it to Barry Wilson, then I think you should attribute Carl Franks first season to Goldsmith
3) Many more coaches were interested in the job than many of us would have believed. Are they Pete Carroll, et al.? Nope...but interest nonetheless.
4) I think 3-4 wins a season is a reasonable expectation
5) Would you ever really want to do what Greg Doyel says to do?

Also, while you note a 25 year cycle, I think that time frame is much too large to compare what is going on in college football. Programs are rising and falling in much faster cycles. See Arizona in the mid 90's. Also, as their coaches have aged and changed, some of the traditional powers have struggled in recent years, creating opportunities for others: a) FSU, b)PSU, c)ND, d)Miami.

Does anyone know our record versus similarly challenged schools over the last 10 years? I don't have detailed win losses by opponent over that time frame. I got a program at the Duke VA Tech game this year but was disappointed it didn't have more information on our historical performance.

All your points and questions are valid and worth looking into. The reason I used a time period like the last 25 years is, to be quite frank Duke football has been in a rut for 25 years with the exception of a few years. The truth is Duke football has been in a rut my entire lifetime or at least mediocre. In my opinion the last really good Duke football team was probably it's last bowl winner in what 1976? While we look back on the Spurrier years with fondness they weren't dominant for the most part. (Co-ACC champions in 1989 and actually 2nd since they lost to UVA) Yes the Franks years were a disaster and the Roof years have been frustrating for staff, teams and fans. My point is Duke has seldom gotten stellar talent like Ben Bennett, Ray Farmer and Clarkston Hines. And when they did it seems they managed one guy on a team against teams with 5-10 future Sunday players.
Okay Roof and staff deserve some blame with play calling which was very apparent yesterday. But the talent drop off when comparing Duke to the other schools is obvious, and glaring when compared to the USC's, Ohio State etc. If Duke has been average at best for 25 years the University itself deserves most of the blame. Even Ray Charles could see they have given up on fielding a good / great football team and competing every Saturday. And I'm not even talking about spending Butch Davis type money on a coach. Truth be told I think Coach K fell into their lap, ended up being a great coach and the basketball program something special or they wouldn't care about that either. I'm proud Duke focuses on teaching their student athletes and prepares them for a non athletic career. I'd just like to see them commit the school to being as good on the field in ALL sports as they are in the classroom.
3-4 wins is an improvement, calling it satisfactory is selling the program, players and fans short. With that mind set, why even try? I'm not talking national championship here. But if Duke University's goal is to win 3-4 games a year and leave it at that then this site will always be DBR and never DAR! (Duke Athletic Report!)

[jimsumner]

1976? Last bowl win?

Try 1960.

The last two Spurrier teams were good as was Goldsmith's first.

Try this.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.db...43&SPSID=22672

[YmoBeThere]

3-4 wins is an improvement, calling it satisfactory is selling the program, players and fans short. With that mind set, why even try? I'm not talking national championship here. But if Duke University's goal is to win 3-4 games a year and leave it at that then this site will always be DBR and never DAR! (Duke Athletic Report!)

The goal is always to win every game every time you play, it never is less. But reality tends to intrude and creates what some would call expectations. If we get back to 3-4 wins a year for more than a couple years, then I think we start talking about what is needed to get to the next level after that. While I applaud your mind set, as you point out, it doesn't jibe at all with what has occured over the last 25 years(with some minor exceptions). Our inability to get to 3-4 wins a season for more than a single year since '98-'99 is what I am frustrated at. I thought this year we had a chance at starting a streak of seasons at that level.

[mapei]

Does anyone know our record versus similarly challenged schools over the last 10 years? I don't have detailed win losses by opponent over that time frame. I got a program at the Duke VA Tech game this year but was disappointed it didn't have more information on our historical performance.

I wonder why.

[Bob Green]

Does anyone know our record versus similarly challenged schools over the last 10 years? I don't have detailed win losses by opponent over that time frame. I got a program at the Duke VA Tech game this year but was disappointed it didn't have more information on our historical performance.

Over the previous ten full seasons, plus the eight games this year, our record is 19-102. The 19 victories have come against:

Navy (twice), Clemson (twice), Wake Forest (twice), Northwestern (twice), Western Carolina (twice), Army, Maryland, Virginia, East Carolina, UNC, Georgia Tech, Rice, The Citadel, & Virginia Military Institute.

Here is a nice database to look at historical performances.