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  1. #3181
    I own too many drug stocks.

  2. #3182
    Not sure value is beating growth at the moment as the banks tend to get lumped in there. But the OPEC announcement is likely to bode well for parts of it.

  3. #3183
    I am hearing folks on Bloomberg talk about the market pricing in the fed taking a pause and starting to cut 50 basis points by the end of the year. Does that premise sound off to others? It sure doesn't feel like inflation has slowed much or that the labor market is easing here in the foothills of NC. Seems to me like they've got a ways to go to put real downward pressure on inflation.

  4. #3184
    Quote Originally Posted by mpj96 View Post
    I am hearing folks on Bloomberg talk about the market pricing in the fed taking a pause and starting to cut 50 basis points by the end of the year. Does that premise sound off to others?
    It sounds plausible to me. One bad Fed decision right after another.

  5. #3185
    I strongly recommend watching Netflix’s “Madoff - The Monster of Wall Street”. It’s about 4 hours and extremely thorough and informative.

    My summary:

    1. The US Federal Government is completely incompetent and truly has low regard for US citizens.

    2. Large US Corporations, and their employees, are basically beyond reproach and will very seldom be held criminally accountable and responsible for their actions.

    3. There’s another Madoff coming soon. And, then another.

    4. Do everything possible to protect you and your family from # 1, 2, & 3. Financial knowledge and independence are of paramount importance.

  6. #3186
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    I strongly recommend watching Netflix’s “Madoff - The Monster of Wall Street”. It’s about 4 hours and extremely thorough and informative.

    My summary:

    1. The US Federal Government is completely incompetent and truly has low regard for US citizens.

    2. Large US Corporations, and their employees, are basically beyond reproach and will very seldom be held criminally accountable and responsible for their actions.

    3. There’s another Madoff coming soon. And, then another.

    4. Do everything possible to protect you and your family from # 1, 2, & 3. Financial knowledge and independence are of paramount importance.

    Was Sam Bankman-Freid considered a Madoof level scamster... Or was he small potatoes?

  7. #3187
    Quote Originally Posted by PackMan97 View Post
    Was Sam Bankman-Freid considered a Madoof level scamster... Or was he small potatoes?
    I don't think you can equate the two at all...Madoff was a straight up ponzi scheme. Stealing money, flat out fake investing while creating fraudulent documents galore, etc. SBF is more like SVB. Serious missteps, investors withdrawing their funds that lead to a crisis and bankruptcy. Could be criminal responsibility there still and misappropriation of funds even, but it wasn't just a total farce of a company with no real investments. SBF believed in the cause. Madoff certainly did not because even he knew that there was no cause...it was all fake.

  8. #3188
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    I don't think you can equate the two at all...Madoff was a straight up ponzi scheme. Stealing money, flat out fake investing while creating fraudulent documents galore, etc. SBF is more like SVB. Serious missteps, investors withdrawing their funds that lead to a crisis and bankruptcy. Could be criminal responsibility there still and misappropriation of funds even, but it wasn't just a total farce of a company with no real investments. SBF believed in the cause. Madoff certainly did not because even he knew that there was no cause...it was all fake.
    I thought there was a lot of outright fraud discovered with SBF?

  9. #3189
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Ashburn, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by Skydog View Post
    I thought there was a lot of outright fraud discovered with SBF?
    Yeah I don't think what Bluedog wrote is accurate. Now, they haven't actually convicted him yet, so he is of course presumed innocent and these are all merely allegations on the government's part, but my personal opinion is he knew exactly what he was doing and that he knew it was very wrong and fraudulent. And the whole "true believer" thing has strongly called into question by the evidence as well.

    Sam's PR circuit he did before his arrest certainly tried to argue the case that (like SVB) it was just bad business decisions that got out of hand, but I'm not buying it.
    A text without a context is a pretext.

  10. #3190
    IMO, where Madoff was most unique was his scale, duration, and ability to acquire very long-term, extremely wealthy participants. Madoff would have probably never been caught by the US Federal Government! Madoff probably would have been able to continue his Ponzi Scheme, for the rest of his life, without The Great Recession!

  11. #3191
    Quote Originally Posted by snowdenscold View Post
    Yeah I don't think what Bluedog wrote is accurate. Now, they haven't actually convicted him yet, so he is of course presumed innocent and these are all merely allegations on the government's part, but my personal opinion is he knew exactly what he was doing and that he knew it was very wrong and fraudulent. And the whole "true believer" thing has strongly called into question by the evidence as well.

    Sam's PR circuit he did before his arrest certainly tried to argue the case that (like SVB) it was just bad business decisions that got out of hand, but I'm not buying it.
    I should have used my words better. It's certainly possible there was some fraud by SBF and his associates, but there was also at least some semblance of an actual business. Madoff literally made no investments on behalf of his clients and EVERYTHING was fake. Not saying either is "good"/legal but I still view them differently.

  12. #3192
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    I should have used my words better. It's certainly possible there was some fraud by SBF and his associates, but there was also at least some semblance of an actual business. Madoff literally made no investments on behalf of his clients and EVERYTHING was fake. Not saying either is "good"/legal but I still view them differently.
    Madoff had an extremely profitable, large, and legitimate business on the 19th floor of the Lipstick Building. Madoff made legitimate markets for almost 10% of the NYSE’s trades. He was the sixth largest market maker, of large stocks, when his sons turned him in to the Feds.

  13. #3193
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Madoff had an extremely profitable, large, and legitimate business on the 19th floor of the Lipstick Building. Madoff made legitimate markets for almost 10% of the NYSE’s trades. He was the sixth largest market maker, of large stocks, when his sons turned him in to the Feds.
    Thanks. I did not realize there was a legitimate business at the time of his arrest. I knew he certainly had one in the 80s/90s and he was a big player, but had thought he abandoned it later as he sought to convert his hedge fund into something else... I stand corrected.

    I guess there's likely no point in comparing "how bad" the fraud is and I admit I lack full information on both cases. I guess we'll see what happens with SBF...

  14. #3194
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Ashburn, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    It's certainly possible there was some fraud by SBF and his associates, but there was also at least some semblance of an actual business. Madoff ... EVERYTHING was fake.
    In theory, running an exchange is a legitimate business.

    But most of these exchanges end up creating their own magic beans tokens which is one of the frustrations I have with this whole space. Sam knew what he was doing with FTT (IMO) and it wasn't good.
    A text without a context is a pretext.

  15. #3195
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Thanks. I did not realize there was a legitimate business at the time of his arrest. I knew he certainly had one in the 80s/90s and he was a big player, but had thought he abandoned it later as he sought to convert his hedge fund into something else...
    You’re welcome.

    There’s three things I find absolutely amazing about Madoff:

    1. His legitimate business brought him more fame & fortune than most would ever need, want, or desire. It satisfied his greed.

    2. His need, want, and/or desire for his dirty business was based purely upon his extreme evilness (not greed).

    3. The US Federal Government would have never caught/stopped him! It was mathematically impossible to have the returns he claimed and it took extreme and constant incompetency (the US Federal Government) to not realize that simple fact.
    Last edited by Jeffrey; 04-07-2023 at 10:48 PM.

  16. #3196
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    You’re welcome.

    There’s three things I find absolutely amazing about Madoff:

    1. His legitimate business brought him more fame & fortune than most would ever need, want, or desire. It satisfied his greed.

    2. His need, want, and/or desire for his dirty business was based purely upon his extreme evilness (not greed).

    3. The US Federal Government would have never caught/stopped him!
    As a very risk averse person with anxiety, I don't know how he slept at night for all those years. I would have been a nervous wreck.

  17. #3197
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    As a very risk averse person with anxiety, I don't know how he slept at night for all those years. I would have been a nervous wreck.
    He had two critical qualities that you clearly lack. Madoff was a narcissist and a psychopath.

    Best I can tell, Madoff had been running his Ponzi since the 70’s! He probably slept like a baby.

  18. #3198
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post

    3. The US Federal Government would have never caught/stopped him! It was mathematically impossible to have the returns he claimed and it took extreme and constant incompetency (the US Federal Government) to not realize that simple fact.
    Markopolos only warned the SEC 8 years before Madoff was caught (and multiple times). Yep, not sure how those communications were ignored, I haven't read Markopolos' book. Having said that, a lot of investors were clearly duped as well including other hedge funds. Do you have an idea HOW other hedge funds (which are theoretically run by sophisticated financial minds) did not "realize that simple fact" or is that also ascribed to "extreme and constant incompetency" by them?

    Edit: I just read a bit more and sounds like the SEC Boston head Garrity knew what was up but he couldn't do anything because his area ended in Greenwich and didn't extend to NY. When the SEC NY branch Head (Cheung) saw it, she asked no questions and closed the investigation. D'oh!
    Last edited by Bluedog; 04-08-2023 at 08:15 AM.

  19. #3199
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Markopolos only warned the SEC 8 years before Madoff was caught (and multiple times). Yep, not sure how those communications were ignored, I haven't read Markopolos' book. Having said that, a lot of investors were clearly duped as well including other hedge funds. Do you have an idea HOW other hedge funds (which are theoretically run by sophisticated financial minds) did not "realize that simple fact" or is that also ascribed to "extreme and constant incompetency" by them?
    Greed obscures reason.

  20. #3200
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Madoff had an extremely profitable, large, and legitimate business on the 19th floor of the Lipstick Building. Madoff made legitimate markets for almost 10% of the NYSE’s trades. He was the sixth largest market maker, of large stocks, when his sons turned him in to the Feds.
    Which makes it even more ironic and amazing that he never bought any stock whatsoever on behalf of his clients in the Ponzi scheme...why bother when you can just sit at a desk and invent "trades" after the fact? So much easier!

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