Fighting a traffic violation - advice?

[Bostondevil]

I was issued a ticket for passing a stopped school bus today at the location where I sometimes pick up my middle schooler. The traffic flow is not optimal. There are two lanes, a parking lane which is supposed to be clear during drop off and pick up times because that is where the school buses park, and the lane for regular traffic. The school buses sit there for up to 20 minutes. My son is an 8th grader. When he was in the 6th grade I would stop and wait behind and to the left of the last bus. At some point I was waved on by the assistant principal when I did this, more than once. I was also beeped at from behind by a late arriving school bus driver on another occasion when I did this. After observing the traffic for awhile, I determined that what was desired was for the cars to pull up as far as they could but stop behind and to the left of the lead bus, leaving access to the regular traffic lane for all buses to proceed. I adopted this as my common practice. That's exactly what I did today. Note, I never consulted a school official or my town's police when I did this, I just followed what I believed was expected of me. Also, students do not cross the street here, they exit the school and get into the buses from the right side.

Today, when I first saw the police there, I thought, "Oh good, they've got someone out here to direct traffic properly, now I'll finally understand the correct procedure." Needless to say when I received the $250 ticket I was a bit miffed and completely surprised. I said I had a few questions about this ticket and he said, "Be quick, I don't have much time." I said, "First of all, why cite me only?" Apparently, I'm the only one he saw do it. Not to call the policeman a liar, but, he didn't actually see me do it either, and I had stopped to let a driver out who was illegally parked in the school bus lane before moving up. Second, I explained that I stopped where I did because I had been instructed to do so in the past. He said, "By a cop?" I said that no, it had only been the assistant principal. He told me I was only to take traffic instructions from a police officer. Then he told me I could appeal the ticket and I told him that I intended to.

My question to the legal folks out here, do I have a chance to get this ticket revoked? What should I do? Take pictures of how pick-up is handled? Ask the school administration for help, perhaps a letter stating that occasionally the assistant principal directs traffic? In the future, do I ignore the assistant principal when she's directing traffic? My son is walking home from school for a long time, no matter how much stuff he has to bring home. (We're less than 100 yards from the line where he would be allowed to take the school bus himself, so pissed is actually a major understatement in how I feel about this.)

[hughgs]

I was issued a ticket for passing a stopped school bus today at the location where I sometimes pick up my middle schooler. The traffic flow is not optimal. There are two lanes, a parking lane which is supposed to be clear during drop off and pick up times because that is where the school buses park, and the lane for regular traffic. The school buses sit there for up to 20 minutes. My son is an 8th grader. When he was in the 6th grade I would stop and wait behind and to the left of the last bus. At some point I was waved on by the assistant principal when I did this, more than once. I was also beeped at from behind by a late arriving school bus driver on another occasion when I did this. After observing the traffic for awhile, I determined that what was desired was for the cars to pull up as far as they could but stop behind and to the left of the lead bus, leaving access to the regular traffic lane for all buses to proceed. I adopted this as my common practice. That's exactly what I did today. Note, I never consulted a school official or my town's police when I did this, I just followed what I believed was expected of me. Also, students do not cross the street here, they exit the school and get into the buses from the right side.

Today, when I first saw the police there, I thought, "Oh good, they've got someone out here to direct traffic properly, now I'll finally understand the correct procedure." Needless to say when I received the $250 ticket I was a bit miffed and completely surprised. I said I had a few questions about this ticket and he said, "Be quick, I don't have much time." I said, "First of all, why cite me only?" Apparently, I'm the only one he saw do it. Not to call the policeman a liar, but, he didn't actually see me do it either, and I had stopped to let a driver out who was illegally parked in the school bus lane before moving up. Second, I explained that I stopped where I did because I had been instructed to do so in the past. He said, "By a cop?" I said that no, it had only been the assistant principal. He told me I was only to take traffic instructions from a police officer. Then he told me I could appeal the ticket and I told him that I intended to.

My question to the legal folks out here, do I have a chance to get this ticket revoked? What should I do? Take pictures of how pick-up is handled? Ask the school administration for help, perhaps a letter stating that occasionally the assistant principal directs traffic? In the future, do I ignore the assistant principal when she's directing traffic? My son is walking home from school for a long time, no matter how much stuff he has to bring home. (We're less than 100 yards from the line where he would be allowed to take the school bus himself, so pissed is actually a major understatement in how I feel about this.)

I thought the rule about passing school buses was that they had to have their RED lights flashing in order to halt traffic? Was that the case? If so, then I think you should suck it up. You may want to look at the rules about passing stopped buses. There are definitely instances where you can pass a stopped school bus.

[blazindw]

As someone who is less than 10 days from finding out if he passed the bar exam, I can give you some personal (read: not legal) advice on the situation. First, the majority of states state that you cannot pass a bus that has their red lights flashing and/or the stop sign protruding from the bus. This occurs when their doors are open. If the lights are on, that means you cannot pass unless the bus driver or a cop waves you by. Second, if there is a parking lane where buses are parked, traffic is normally allowed to flow in the traffic lane. It is treated the same as if the bus is on the shoulder of a road broken down...traffic still flows, but (obviously) quite cautiously past the bus. Third, there are people who can direct traffic in their authority, depending on the circumstances (e.g. construction workers, crossing guards, etc.) If the assistant principal was out in the road directing school traffic, it should be okay to follow her directions. If she was just on the sidewalk waving you down to the end of the buses, that might not be as okay.

What I would do is, if you're going to fight the ticket, get a letter from the assistant principal stating that she is sometimes called upon to direct traffic at those times for the sake of the children's safety. Also, a couple pictures of the normal traffic pattern (including where cars stop) won't hurt. You shouldn't have to go overboard though. Remember, in most states, most traffic court hearings come down to your word versus the cop's word. If the cop doesn't show, your chances of having the ticket thrown out is much higher.

Again, just my personal observations (I don't want to be construed as practicing law...yet). Good luck!

[Olympic Fan]

I am not a lawyer (and I don't play one on TV). But you give me a chance to brag about my one great legal moment.

About seven years ago I was ticketed for running a red light in front of the South Square complex in Durham. I did not think I deserved the ticket -- I pulled into the intersection on green, but was blocked from making my left turn by the car in front of me, which slowed to rubberneck at a traffic stop on the other side of the intersection. By the time I was able to complete my turn (and exit the intersection) the light had turned red.

Anyway, I showed up in court to dispute the ticket -- without a lawyer and without legal advice. Truthfully, I was hoping that the policeman wouldn't show and the case would be dismissed (in my ignorance, I had read that often happens).

Before traffic court opened, the assistant DA called up all the pending cases. I was second on the list. I told him that I was going to dispute the charge. He told me that he'd offer a prayer for judgment ... I think that's what he said -- the point was I would not enter a plea, I'd pay a fine and if my driving record was clear for the next year (?), two years (??) the conviction would be removed from my record. I'd save the cost of court costs (which could be much more than my fine), plus the possibility of a larger fine, if I were found guilty.

And the smug, arrogant SOB prosecuter -- a guy named Mike Nifong, BTW -- smiled and said, "We never lose these cases."

When I told him that I thought I was not guilty and wanted to fight it, he should his head like I was a pitiful case. He couldn't believe that I would contest the ticket ... and would do so without a lawyer. Later, I heard him talking about me to his assistant and , making sure I could overhear him, he said, "How many of these in a row have we won ... 300, 400?"

Since the first guy on the list settled, I was first to go to trial. It was just like on TV -- a judge, the prosecutors on her right and a table for the defense (me!) on her left.

Nifong didn't prosecute the case himself ... he sat at the end of the defense table doing paper work, while a young assistant DA tried my case.

It was very straightforward ... the DA called the policeman who had ticketed me and and he testified that I had run the light and forced on-coming traffic to brake to avoid me. I got to cross-examine him. I was too nervous to stand up and do my Clarence Darrow imitation, so I sat there and asked him if he had seen the traffic stop on the other side of the intersection or the car in front of me, blocking my turn. He said 'No' to both.

That clever bit of cross-examination completed, the prosecution rested and I had my turn. My only witness was myself ... I took the oath, walked (wobbily) to the witness stand and sat down. I then told my side of the story. I ended by pointing out that I had received 4 or 5 traffic tickets in my 40 years of driving and I had paid them all without dispute -- this was different because this time I was innocent. The DA was given a chance to cross-examine, but had just one question -- did I admit making the turn after the light turned red.

A said yes, but quickly added, "I was stuck in the middle of the intersection. What was I supposed to do?"

That was it. I was still sitting in the stand, wondering what happens next, when the judge, without looking up from some writing she was doing, said, "Case dismissed."

The whole thing took less than 15 minutes -- I got out of the courtroom as fast as I could. Ever since, I've told people that Perry Mason and I are the only two lawyers to never lose a case.

But seriously, just by calmly insisting on my innocence and telling the truth as I saw it, I got justice. I suspect you'll be offered some kind of deal before trial -- if saving money and time is your biggest concern, then take it. If you are determined to prove your innocence, let it go to trial and tell your story.

The advice blazindw gave about getting a letter from an official at your school or providing pictures about the traffic pattern sound good to my untrained legal mind. But just standing up for yourself and telling the truth worked for me and I suspect it would work for you too.

Good luck.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Sounds like the traffic pattern there is in serious need of review and more importantly change, BEFORE some kid is hit by a car. That said, call your local TV station trouble shooter - he or she should be very willing to do a story on the problem, not to get you out of your ticket, but to avert a potential disaster, which also may help you get out of your ticket.

BTW, for those in Wake County, they are doing a campaign to catch folks passing stopped school buses. So be forewarned not to do that.

As to the left turn on red light story above, if you enter the intersection before the light turns red, you are not guilty of running a red light, or so I've always been told and think I read in one version of the NC drivers license test book. I always sit in the intersection waiting to turn left when traffic is heavy. If I didn't, I'd still be sitting there waiting....

[TillyGalore]

Like Olympic Fan, I fought the ticket (speeding) I received - in Massachusetts - while traveling through a school zone. The police officer clocked me doing 35 in a school zone. Knowing the flashing lights indicating a speed limit of 25 were not flashing I called around to find out what time the lights were supposed to be on, which was about 7:30 a.m. and the ticket was written after 7:30. Convienced though that the lights were not on, I took pictures, for five consecutive business days - the pictures were time and date stamped - of the sign that was supposed to be on, though wasn't.

As this was around the time of the OJ trial I marked each picture defense exhibit A, B, etc. Wanted my Perry Mason moment too.

In my situation I went before a Magistrate and a representative of the police force was there, so the ticketing officer didn't have to show up.

The rep presented the cops side then I presented mine, which as mentioned included pictures. The Magistrate found me not responsible (I think that was the term).

A few months later I ran into the police rep at the hospital I was working in - this was in a Boston suburb so not that unlikely to run into him. We were talking as I had mentioned I recognized him but couldn't place him. Then it hit me where I knew him from and mentioned I'd won my case. To which he smugly replied he let me win, insert bad word describing said police rep here.

Bostondevil, what I learned from this little run in is to write down what happened as you recall - though what you have above is pretty darn good. Take pictures as has previously suggested. And fight it! Not sure if the ticketing officer has to be there as he wasn't in my case, though a rep for him was there.

Good luck! Let us know how it turns out.

[throatybeard]

Awesome, Tilly. 27 8x10 color glossy photographs with a paragraph on the back explain what each one was.

[allenmurray]

Awesome, Tilly. 27 8x10 color glossy photographs with a paragraph on the back explain what each one was.

We walked in, sat down, Obie came in with the twenty seven eight-by-ten
colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back
of each one, sat down. Man came in said, "All rise." We all stood up,
and Obie stood up with the twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy
pictures, and the judge walked in sat down with a seeing eye dog, and he sat down, we sat down. Obie looked at the seeing eye dog, and then at the
twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows
and a paragraph on the back of each one, and looked at the seeing eye dog.
And then at twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles
and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one and began to cry,
'cause Obie came to the realization that it was a typical case of American
blind justice, and there wasn't nothing he could do about it, and the
judge wasn't going to look at the twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy
pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each
one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against us.

[Lavabe]

And the smug, arrogant SOB prosecuter -- a guy named Mike Nifong, BTW -- smiled and said, "We never lose these cases."

When I told him that I thought I was not guilty and wanted to fight it, he should his head like I was a pitiful case. He couldn't believe that I would contest the ticket ... and would do so without a lawyer. Later, I heard him talking about me to his assistant and , making sure I could overhear him, he said, "How many of these in a row have we won ... 300, 400?"

...
Nifong didn't prosecute the case himself ... he sat at the end of the defense table doing paper work, while a young assistant DA tried my case.
...
That was it. I was still sitting in the stand, wondering what happens next, when the judge, without looking up from some writing she was doing, said, "Case dismissed."

POTW! But now two questions:
1) What was Nifong's reaction?
2) Does this thread get bumped to the lacrosse board?

Cheers,
Lavabe

[Bostondevil]

One added detail that I think is important, the school buses were parked, not stopped, parked, in parking spaces. The lights were flashing but the lights are always flashing when the school bus doors are open, again, the buses sit there for 20 minutes or more, everyday, with their lights flashing, against the curb, in parking spaces. The school website instructs parents to use this road to pick up children from school. The school website also instructs students not to cross this particular street during pick-up times. There are crossing guards at other roads leading to the school but not this one. If you sit there behind the school buses for 20 minutes traffic backs up onto the cross street behind you. That's when the school personnel wave you on.

I've never received a moving violation before, not because I'm lucky, but because I obey the rules. That's why I'm so mad here. I thought I was obeying the rules in a special circumstance. The school and the local police need to have a conversation. I'm going to insist that happens.

[allenmurray]

Had school been dismissed yet? I think that fact, together with the fact that the school busses were parked, is crucial. If school was dismissed and kids were getting onto busses I would imagine you are out of luck. However, if school had not been dismissed I don't see how passing a parked bus posed an actual safety issue.

If the DA offers to let you plead to something lower I would go for it. No matter how eloquent your explanation is the picture in the judge's mind is going to be someone passing a bus while cute little children dive into the bushes to avoid being killed.

[captmojo]

One big pile was better than two little piles and rather than bring that one up, we decided to throw ours down.


On to serious matters...this cop should have been more discretionary. Go back to the scene of the crime, take good photos, and a lot of them. Throw yourself on the mercy of the court while offering that some legal standard of operations need to be established here for future reference and the public safety. Make the judge feel the case cries loudly for his expert wisdom so others should not be subject to the fate you have tried to avoid, but that only he can satiate.

Do take it serious 'cause the states usually look at what you were charged with on a par with vehicular manslaughter or worse. I'm pulling for you. We want to know the results.

[Bostondevil]

If the DA offers to let you plead to something lower I would go for it. No matter how eloquent your explanation is the picture in the judge's mind is going to be someone passing a bus while cute little children dive into the bushes to avoid being killed.

It's a middle school.

If they offer to let me pay the fine but put no points on my license, I will take that. Still, it's the principal of the thing. I was given incorrect information, on more than one occasion, and the officer who wrote the ticket refused to answer my questions so I'm still in the dark about what is really considered proper in this situation. He told me I should ignore traffic instructions from school personnel in the future. I'm certainly going to mention that fact to the assistant principal. And where do crossing guards fit into this equation, they aren't police officers, they are paid through the schools.

I don't get to go before a judge. I get to tell my story to a clerk. The officer also said I passed two buses that had flashing lights, true, but the officer waved me past the second one. Sadly, school had been dismissed.

[Olympic Fan]

POTW! But now two questions:
1) What was Nifong's reaction?
2) Does this thread get bumped to the lacrosse board?

Cheers,
Lavabe

To be honest, I don't remember looking at Nifong ... just scampering out of the courtroom as fast as my legs could carry me. Obviously, losing to me didn't do anything to shake his overwheening confidence.

PS LOVE Throaty and Allenmurry's Alice's Restaurant references ... one of the best protest songs of my generation (maybe because humor works better than outrage). I also think the 1969 movie version (directed by Arthur Penn) is an underrated masterpiece -- one of the best and most honest looks at the counterculture movement. Interesting that Penn made his Arlo Guthrie movie immediately after Bonnie and Clyde in '67 and just before Little Big Man in 1970. Interesting trio.

[mapei]

BostonDevil, I think you have a very good chance of success. This isn't the kind of law I practice, but for the most part the judges who review these things are not jerks and try to do the right thing. You'll have to show up, which is no fun, but as you suggest it's better than getting the points.

[Bostondevil]

Well, the good news is I went running today to get this off my mind. (It's amazing how consuming a sense of injustice can be, and ultimately this is really small potatoes, I feel even more the the three LAX guys.) I did a mile in 8:04! I've now knocked 5+ minutes off my mile time since July.

ETA: I'm not posting for awhile, I want to savor being Grant Hill.

[Clipsfan]

As to the left turn on red light story above, if you enter the intersection before the light turns red, you are not guilty of running a red light, or so I've always been told and think I read in one version of the NC drivers license test book. I always sit in the intersection waiting to turn left when traffic is heavy. If I didn't, I'd still be sitting there waiting....

Yeah, here in LA that's the standard procedure. Normally there are 2-3 cars in the lane, and often another one will push through (definitely running the light). That's the way it is all day every day.

[throatybeard]

I've been caught speeding 5 times (none recently) and twice the officer lied about what I was doing. One officer asked me for a bribe. I'm assuming this sort of behavior is SOP, albeit based on a small sample. Makes a guy glad he's not an African American motorist.

[hughgs]

One added detail that I think is important, the school buses were parked, not stopped, parked, in parking spaces. The lights were flashing but the lights are always flashing when the school bus doors are open, again, the buses sit there for 20 minutes or more, everyday, with their lights flashing, against the curb, in parking spaces. The school website instructs parents to use this road to pick up children from school. The school website also instructs students not to cross this particular street during pick-up times. There are crossing guards at other roads leading to the school but not this one. If you sit there behind the school buses for 20 minutes traffic backs up onto the cross street behind you. That's when the school personnel wave you on.

I've never received a moving violation before, not because I'm lucky, but because I obey the rules. That's why I'm so mad here. I thought I was obeying the rules in a special circumstance. The school and the local police need to have a conversation. I'm going to insist that happens.

I realized something driving today, with regards to the school bus. Surely there are rules, or some such, about when school buses are allowed to have their red lights flashing. If not, then any school bus driver could stop traffic at their whim.

It seems that this is one situation where your local law school students may be able to help investigate the pertinent rules and regulations for you. Find out if a student could make a project out of it by talking to some professors.