Star Wars: The Last Jedi SPOILER THREAD!!

[JasonEvans]

Warning, the posts the follow will contain spoilers and discussion of stuff that happens in The Last Jedi.

DO NOT READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED!

I'M SERIOUS.

STOP READING NOW...

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-Jason "I'm going to start the spoilers in the next post, just to be safe" Evans

[JasonEvans]

I liked the movie, really I did... but this post is going to contain a pretty good bit of criticism.

So, I hated, hated, hated the side plot with Rose, Finn, and Benicio Del Toro. If you ask me it served no point at all and really drug out the length of the film. Nothing that happened on the side plot mattered for the resolution of the movie. I think the biggest flaw in this film was that Rian felt he had to spend time telling Finn and Poe's story when all we wanted was more more more more Luke, Kylo, Snoke, and Rey.

Think about this -- the original films really had 3 main characters -- Luke, Han, and Leia. We spent every moment with them and they were together almost all of the time. Other characters only existed to interact with those 3. This movie has Rey, Luke, Leia, Kylo, Finn, and Poe as equal main characters and they are never really together at all except at the very very very end of the movie.

The moment when Poe meets Rey at the end of the movie... are we supposed to get some romantic sparks there?

So, now to some critical questions:

1. Why did Luke disappear into mist at the end? Had his concentration making an image of himself on a far off planet weakened him to the point of self-destruction or something? Huh?

2. What was Yoda's point? Did Yoda convince Luke to help the resistance? Why did Yoda show up?

3. So, when Laura Dern hyperdrove into Snoke's ship, it killed a bunch of stormtroopers and knocked everyone out, except for Rose... really?

4. How did Rey get off Snoke's ship? How did she get onto the Falcon? Did I miss a scene?

5. I loved how cool Snoke's guards were, but it would have been nice to see them kick butt a bit before they went into action against two stud force users. We should have believed there was actually some peril for Rey and Kylo in that scene, but there was no sense of that (though it was a really cool lightsaber fight).

6. Maz Katana talking while fighting for her life was lame beyond all belief. That scene was so bad, it really pulled me out of being enveloped by the movie.

7. Leia flying through space and not instantly freezing to death was insane and bad. There are rules regarding the Force and the universe but it feels like Rian was making them up as he went along in this movie. I thought this was the second movie in a row where it felt like Leia had only a passing impact on the story. She was almost an afterthought.

8. There wasn't a single thing that happened on the gambling planet that was even remotely interesting. There was some kind of class warfare kinda message being imparted to us there, I think, but it was heavy-handed and did not work at all.

Now, some good stuff...

1. Poe's "I can't hear you" conversation with General Hux was one of the best moments in cinematic history. I was dying with laughter.

2. I adored the connection between Kylo and Rey and how it drew them into a relationship of sorts. Like I said at the outset, I would have watched the two of them do that forever and been happy.

3. Kylo killing Snoke was masterful. Snoke can sense exactly what Kylo is doing, but does not realize Kylo is doing it to him, not Rey. I adored that scene.

4. Of course, the best moment in the movie was Luke wiping dust off his shoulder. Sooooo awesome! It is worth noting that Kylo then faces Luke and says there will be no more Jedi after this fight to which Luke says Kylo is wrong, implying Rey is now a Jedi. Are we supposed to think that Luke has trained Rey enough for her to be a Jedi? I'm not sure I buy that. Of course, I'm not sure there is a specific definition of what a Jedi is, so I guess she can be one even without a lot of training.

So much more... taking a break for now.

[JasonEvans]

By the way, if you are not averse to being spoiled and have a question you want to ask me, feel free to post is here.

[JasonEvans]

So here's what we know after 7 movies, 8 if you include Rogue One, and you can draw your own prediction. It operates on the fairly large assumption that this new trilogy will be connected to the prequel trilogy (which I don't think has happened yet).

1. Cloning technology is possible, and successful. The Clone Wars are canon -- Obi-Wan mentions it in A New Hope, as does Senator Bail Organa in Rogue One -- though what that means is confined to Episode II, Episode III, and both animated series.

2. Having the Force appears to be a function of genetics. Whether you want to remain vague and mystical (original trilogy) or biologically specific (prequel trilogy) is up to you.

3. Darth Vader's melted helmet -- presumably the one from Endor when Luke cremated his father in Return of the Jedi -- was recovered and eventually ended up in the possession of Kylo Ren.

4. The lightsaber that Luke lost just outside Cloud City in The Empire Strikes Back was recovered and eventually ended up in the possession of Maz Kanata. No mention is made of the human hand once attached to it.

5. By the end of Episode III, Emperor Palpatine seemed to believe that a near-dead, incinerated, less-than-fully-limbed Anakin Skywalker was worth preserving.

6. Snoke is probably much older than Rey.

I find it amusing that not a single one of these observations was even moderately addressed in the new movie... other than Luke's lightsaber which is discarded in a truly hysterical moment at the start of the movie (Rey picks it up and uses it, but it isn't some important plot point).

Also, it would seem that Rey's unimportant and unimpressive parentage would run against the theory in item #2 about genetics and the Force. I'm not entirely convinced that Kylo's assessment of Rey's parents is true. I feel like there should be something more significant there for her to be as powerful as she is.

-Jason "worth noting that with Luke's demise (and Carrie Fisher's death), it would seem the Skywalker family Force now rests entirely in the hands of Kylo Ren" Evans

[bjornolf]

On your fourth point under good, you can be a Jedi without being a Knight or Master. Younglings and Padawan are members of the Jedi Order, and thus could be considered Jedi.

[JasonEvans]

On your fourth point under good, you can be a Jedi without being a Knight or Master. Younglings and Padawan are members of the Jedi Order, and thus could be considered Jedi.

With the original Jedi texts destroyed (which Yoda laughs about) and Luke gone, I'm not sure there can be any Jedi masters ever again... though I suppose some other texts may still exist. Of course, we have seen so much of Obi Won and Yoda appearing after their deaths, I don't know why they couldn't team up with Luke to continue to teach Rey from beyond the grave.

-Jason "I guess Kylo could teach Rey... ha!" Evans

[Acymetric]

With the original Jedi texts destroyed (which Yoda laughs about) and Luke gone, I'm not sure there can be any Jedi masters ever again... though I suppose some other texts may still exist. Of course, we have seen so much of Obi Won and Yoda appearing after their deaths, I don't know why they couldn't team up with Luke to continue to teach Rey from beyond the grave.

-Jason "I guess Kylo could teach Rey... ha!" Evans

Has anyone even explained the Dark Side to Rey? She seems to somehow be very aware of the dangers without anyone having talked to her about it.

[trey]

With the original Jedi texts destroyed (which Yoda laughs about) and Luke gone, I'm not sure there can be any Jedi masters ever again... though I suppose some other texts may still exist. Of course, we have seen so much of Obi Won and Yoda appearing after their deaths, I don't know why they couldn't team up with Luke to continue to teach Rey from beyond the grave.

-Jason "I guess Kylo could teach Rey... ha!" Evans

I thought I saw the Jedi texts in a drawer on the Millenium Falcon at the end. Did anyone else see that?

I agree with your assessment. I thought the slapstick humor in the beginning was overdone, and the side story wasn’t enjoyable. But the Force/Rey/Kylo/Luke stuff was awesome. I would’ve enjoyed more of that.

[mr shadow 008]

I thought I saw the Jedi texts in a drawer on the Millenium Falcon at the end. Did anyone else see that?

I agree with your assessment. I thought the slapstick humor in the beginning was overdone, and the side story wasn’t enjoyable. But the Force/Rey/Kylo/Luke stuff was awesome. I would’ve enjoyed more of that.

Just got out of the movie. I’m pretty sure I saw the same thing you did but I couldn’t be sure. Curious to know whether Kylo was just playing on Rey’s fears about her parents or if he’s telling the truth

[-jk]

I thought I saw the Jedi texts in a drawer on the Millenium Falcon at the end. Did anyone else see that?

...

I, too, thought I saw them, but my 14 yo son didn't notice them. I seem to recall Yoda saying something like she has all the info she needs. And she'll need them to learn how to make (or rebuild) a light sabre.

Edit: One other thought - if Snoke was connecting Kylo and Ren he may have been feeding the visions, also, so we don't really know how accurate Kylo's report of Ren's parentage is.

Overall reaction was: it's a good movie. Son wants to see it again; I'd be happy to go back.

-jk

[trey]

I, too, thought I saw them, but my 14 yo son didn't notice them. I seem to recall Yoda saying something like she has all the info she needs. And she'll need them to learn how to make (or rebuild) a light sabre.

Edit: One other thought - if Snoke was connecting Kylo and Ren he may have been feeding the visions, also, so we don't really know how accurate Kylo's report of Ren's parentage is.

Overall reaction was: it's a good movie. Son wants to see it again; I'd be happy to go back.

-jk

I saw it again yesterday and they are definitely there. In the first scene on the Falcon after leaving Ahch-To, we see Rey closing a drawer. Then at the end Finn opens that drawer to get a blanket for Rose and they are on the screen for a few seconds.

I was a little down on the movie after my first viewing for the reasons cited here, but I enjoyed it much, much more the second time around. There are definitely a few things I don't like, but the rest of it is pure gold. I loved:

Kylo and Rey's developing relationship
All the great scenes with Carrie Fisher (RIP Princess)
Yoda!
Kylo and Rey taking on Snoke's guards
Holdo kamikaze-ing the First Order
Chewy/Rey saving the day with the Millennium Falcon (causing Kylo to lose it and send all the Tie Fighters after them)
The Luke twist at the end

Speaking of that...it may have been mentioned upthread, but there are several giveaways that Luke is not really there. Obviously his appearance is different, but he is also wielding the Anakin/Luke/Rey lightsaber destroyed earlier in the movie. Then Kylo's feet reveal the red salt below while Luke's do not. I thought those were nice subtle touches.

So if you love Star Wars but didn't really like this movie, give it another chance.

[Acymetric]

4. How did Rey get off Snoke's ship? How did she get onto the Falcon? Did I miss a scene?

Yes, although it was just kind of slipped in there and would have been easy to miss. Kylo mentions to General Hux when he comes in that she escaped in Snoke's ship. How she ends up on the Falcon is somewhat unclear.

I enjoyed the movie but was generally dissatisfied, it feels like the story didn't move forward at all. Cut out all the fluff and what is left could have been the first 30 or 40 minutes of a really good movie.

[CDu]

So, I hated, hated, hated the side plot with Rose, Finn, and Benicio Del Toro. If you ask me it served no point at all and really drug out the length of the film. Nothing that happened on the side plot mattered for the resolution of the movie. I think the biggest flaw in this film was that Rian felt he had to spend time telling Finn and Poe's story when all we wanted was more more more more Luke, Kylo, Snoke, and Rey.

Think about this -- the original films really had 3 main characters -- Luke, Han, and Leia. We spent every moment with them and they were together almost all of the time. Other characters only existed to interact with those 3. This movie has Rey, Luke, Leia, Kylo, Finn, and Poe as equal main characters and they are never really together at all except at the very very very end of the movie.

I think you're overthinking this, and perhaps misremembering a bit about the original trilogy. In Episode IV, we get a lot of Luke, Han, and Leia. But we actually get more Obi Wan than Leia. And we get as much Vader as we got Kylo. In V, we get a bunch of Yoda and Luke, and a healthy dose of Lando in the mix. The casts are separate for a ton of the movie in that one too (again, the parallels between Episode VIII and Episode V are strong). In VI we had the damn Ewok angle. So they've certainly not been afraid to overplay the tertiary characters.

I don't think they went overboard on character development here. Luke served a Yoda/Obi-Wan role. Kylo served the Vader role. Snope aligns with the Emperor. Poe, Finn, and Rey are the main trio of young heroes. Rose isn't exactly parallel to Lando, but it's kind of a similar level of role. And Benicio Del Toro essentially plays the Boba Fett character.

The moment when Poe meets Rey at the end of the movie... are we supposed to get some romantic sparks there?

Maybe? I suspect Johnson wanted to have that door open. There's also the hint of jealousy from Rey seeing Finn care for Rose. Just keeping options open for the next movie.

1. Why did Luke disappear into mist at the end? Had his concentration making an image of himself on a far off planet weakened him to the point of self-destruction or something? Huh?

This part was a bit confusing for me too. It's really unclear what causes Luke to die. But, I'll let it slide. See below.

2. What was Yoda's point? Did Yoda convince Luke to help the resistance? Why did Yoda show up?

Yoda was there to convince Luke not to give up. And to say that while Luke failed Ben Solo, he could still learn from his failure and make amends and find peace.

3. So, when Laura Dern hyperdrove into Snoke's ship, it killed a bunch of stormtroopers and knocked everyone out, except for Rose... really?

I mean, the whole premise of the franchise is ridiculous, right? Did you see the original movie (rhetorical question, of course)? How many trained stormtroopers missed our heros at short distances in Episodes IV-VI? All of the Star Wars movies require pretty substantial suspension of disbelief.

4. How did Rey get off Snoke's ship? How did she get onto the Falcon? Did I miss a scene?

She escaped in the break when Laura Dern's character smashed the ship. No clue how she got back onto the Falcon, but that's not really a big deal to me. Chewy knew where Rey was, so once she escaped it seems logical that Chewy would find her. Honestly, on the scale of improbable things in the Star Wars franchise, that one's pretty far from obscene.

5. I loved how cool Snoke's guards were, but it would have been nice to see them kick butt a bit before they went into action against two stud force users. We should have believed there was actually some peril for Rey and Kylo in that scene, but there was no sense of that (though it was a really cool lightsaber fight).

Eh, I guess. But it's already a super-long movie. Can't we just assume that Snoke would surround himself with well-trained guards?

7. Leia flying through space and not instantly freezing to death was insane and bad. There are rules regarding the Force and the universe but it feels like Rian was making them up as he went along in this movie. I thought this was the second movie in a row where it felt like Leia had only a passing impact on the story. She was almost an afterthought.

The space thing was silly. But again, I point back to suspension of disbelief. The whole franchise is fraught with ridiculousness. Just part of the package, and always has been.

8. There wasn't a single thing that happened on the gambling planet that was even remotely interesting. There was some kind of class warfare kinda message being imparted to us there, I think, but it was heavy-handed and did not work at all.

I actually liked the addition of the trip to the gambling planet. It helps build the protagonist role of Finn, one of the three main "good guy" characters. He goes from wanting to run away from adversity and only protect himself and Rey to being a guy who wants to stand for something bigger than himself. And that emerges from his time on the gambling planet.

1. Poe's "I can't hear you" conversation with General Hux was one of the best moments in cinematic history. I was dying with laughter.

See, I found this kind of cheesy. To each their own.

2. I adored the connection between Kylo and Rey and how it drew them into a relationship of sorts. Like I said at the outset, I would have watched the two of them do that forever and been happy.

This was certainly well done. But, I think any more than they did would have been overkill. There's only so much "will you join me? no, will you join me?" that a movie can take before it gets old.

3. Kylo killing Snoke was masterful. Snoke can sense exactly what Kylo is doing, but does not realize Kylo is doing it to him, not Rey. I adored that scene.

That scene was fantastic. You knew what was going to happen, and yet having Snope unwittingly give the play-by-play to his own death was brilliant. Also an excellent play off the "arrogance/hubris - failure" link that Luke had made just a few scenes earlier.

4. Of course, the best moment in the movie was Luke wiping dust off his shoulder. Sooooo awesome!

Again, I found this cheesy.

It is worth noting that Kylo then faces Luke and says there will be no more Jedi after this fight to which Luke says Kylo is wrong, implying Rey is now a Jedi. Are we supposed to think that Luke has trained Rey enough for her to be a Jedi? I'm not sure I buy that. Of course, I'm not sure there is a specific definition of what a Jedi is, so I guess she can be one even without a lot of training.

Did you buy that Luke was a Jedi after his minimal training with Obi-Wan and Yoda? I think the idea is that there are those with so much natural ability that they need to only find the connection to the force, and understand the balance of dark vs light. But, yeah, just as it seemed silly for Luke to be able to match Vader with such little training, it seems silly that Rey could achieve Jedi status with similarly limited training.

[bjornolf]

Well, remember, Yoda told Luke he was NOT yet a jedi knight and still had much to learn and that he must also face Vader. Then he faded out mic drop style with the there is another Skywalker comment.

So, the training alone did not make Luke a Jedi Knight. All that back and forth with his dad and eventually savng him did.

[bjornolf]

I mean, the whole premise of the franchise is ridiculous, right? Did you see the original movie (rhetorical question, of course)? How many trained stormtroopers missed our heros at short distances in Episodes IV-VI? All of the Star Wars movies require pretty substantial suspension of disbelief.

One of my favorite lines of the entire franchise from an ironic standpoint. "these blast points ... far too accurate for sand people. Only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise." How freaking bad were sand people with blasters? Did they accidentally shoot each other constantly? And yet in TPM, they hit pod racers at full speed from hundreds of meters away.

[luburch]

This part was a bit confusing for me too. It's really unclear what causes Luke to die. But, I'll let it slide.

I agree with CDu on most of his points.

I think the answer to why Luke dies is twofold.

First, earlier in the movie when Kylo and Rey have their first mind exchange, Kylo says something along the lines of “You’re not doing this. The effort would kill you.” That was just the effort required to see each other without surroundings. Luke is definitely stronger than Rey, but it was established that it takes a great effort to create a force projection.

Second, he had finally found pace with himself and the force. After years of feeling guilty and trapped he was free. At least, that’s how I see it.

[freshmanjs]

The apprentice always kills the master in the Sith / bad guy line. Kylo Ren was summoned to "complete his training." Didn't Snoke know what that meant?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I agree with CDu on most of his points.

I think the answer to why Luke dies is twofold.

First, earlier in the movie when Kylo and Rey have their first mind exchange, Kylo says something along the lines of “You’re not doing this. The effort would kill you.” That was just the effort required to see each other without surroundings. Luke is definitely stronger than Rey, but it was established that it takes a great effort to create a force projection.

Second, he had finally found pace with himself and the force. After years of feeling guilty and trapped he was free. At least, that’s how I see it.

Apparently, Jedi need to do some research on green screens. If my local weatherman can master it, surely Luke et al can figure it out.

Yes, I also saw Luke's death as more of a transcendence... in that his description of the Force early in the movie was very Buddhist. For Luke to find his peace after helping balance out the trouble he helped create helped him to attain the higher plane.

Probably making it more philosophical than it was, but that's what I read into it. You are probably right - it's exhaustion from pulling such a great trick on Kylo. I admit, I did not see that coming in the slightest and had visions of Luke trying to deflect hundreds of shots with his light saber to stand strong before going toe to toe with Kylo in a match he would ultimately lose.

Again, another trope inverted - I was expecting Luke to sacrifice himself to let the others escape, a la Kenobi on the Death Star in Episode IV, being struck down by the Big Bad. He sacrificed himself in a much more satisfying way, in my opinion.

[freshmanjs]

The Rotten Tomatoes audience score is very low at 56%. That's in the same neighborhood as the prequels. Hard to believe.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

The Rotten Tomatoes audience score is very low at 56%. That's in the same neighborhood as the prequels. Hard to believe.

So weird. I guess Star Wars fans don't like gray areas. To me, seeing actual flaws and conflict was interesting.