End Division I College Sports?

[monkey]

So, with the UNC non-punishment announced, the addidas scandal blossoming and the era of one-and-done making it such that top prospects, even those who stay for more than one year, are becoming increasingly unlikely to graduate, I have to seriously ask: why are division I sports still to exist? Why should Duke continue to support them?

In the past, I've always pooh-poohed those who suggested Duke get out of athletics and become "more Ivy-League" or drop down a division (in the bad-old days of football, not so long ago), but at this point, I'm struggling to see how any of this is consistent with educating students or any semblance of a "normal" student experience at a University. I recall that when I got to Duke (mid 90s) one of the things that was stressed was that the basketball team graduation rates were as good or better than the student body as a whole.

How can any of this tie in the slightest bit to academics or education? Regarding the paying the players debate, I'd rather just shut it all down at this point, and that saddens me. I've loved watching Duke sports, especially the basketball team. But at this point it just all seems like one giant corrupt business to me. I cast no aspersions on any of our players or coaches for this development and do not think that Duke has been particularly part of the problem (although I think the one and done change has significantly devalued what it means to be a Duke student-athlete, although I blame no one for taking the money).

Why should Duke exist in an NCAA that makes a mockery of academics (in the UNC situation) or the ACC (wherein we have to play the aforementioned cheaters)? Why should we compete against programs with shoe money greasing the wheels? Why should DI sports (or the revenue sports) exist when they seem to have little to do with academics, everything to do with a big business and the business is (in most cases) losing money?

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this post - but actually would like to hear arguments why we should continue our current participation in the whole enterprise and why sports shouldn't go back to being a club level enterprise - diversions for students who are otherwise on the campus to be students.

[BandAlum83]

So, with the UNC non-punishment announced, the addidas scandal blossoming and the era of one-and-done making it such that top prospects, even those who stay for more than one year, are becoming increasingly unlikely to graduate, I have to seriously ask: why are division I sports still to exist? Why should Duke continue to support them?

In the past, I've always pooh-poohed those who suggested Duke get out of athletics and become "more Ivy-League" or drop down a division (in the bad-old days of football, not so long ago), but at this point, I'm struggling to see how any of this is consistent with educating students or any semblance of a "normal" student experience at a University. I recall that when I got to Duke (mid 90s) one of the things that was stressed was that the basketball team graduation rates were as good or better than the student body as a whole.

How can any of this tie in the slightest bit to academics or education? Regarding the paying the players debate, I'd rather just shut it all down at this point, and that saddens me. I've loved watching Duke sports, especially the basketball team. But at this point it just all seems like one giant corrupt business to me. I cast no aspersions on any of our players or coaches for this development and do not think that Duke has been particularly part of the problem (although I think the one and done change has significantly devalued what it means to be a Duke student-athlete, although I blame no one for taking the money).

Why should Duke exist in an NCAA that makes a mockery of academics (in the UNC situation) or the ACC (wherein we have to play the aforementioned cheaters)? Why should we compete against programs with shoe money greasing the wheels? Why should DI sports (or the revenue sports) exist when they seem to have little to do with academics, everything to do with a big business and the business is (in most cases) losing money?

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this post - but actually would like to hear arguments why we should continue our current participation in the whole enterprise and why sports shouldn't go back to being a club level enterprise - diversions for students who are otherwise on the campus to be students.

Emory University, a well respected university, has as part of its charter that it cannot participate in Division I sports. My son went there. I know it well. In many ways (other than sports) it reminds me of Duke.

The question you ask is valid and topical.

[MCFinARL]

So, with the UNC non-punishment announced, the addidas scandal blossoming and the era of one-and-done making it such that top prospects, even those who stay for more than one year, are becoming increasingly unlikely to graduate, I have to seriously ask: why are division I sports still to exist? Why should Duke continue to support them?

In the past, I've always pooh-poohed those who suggested Duke get out of athletics and become "more Ivy-League" or drop down a division (in the bad-old days of football, not so long ago), but at this point, I'm struggling to see how any of this is consistent with educating students or any semblance of a "normal" student experience at a University. I recall that when I got to Duke (mid 90s) one of the things that was stressed was that the basketball team graduation rates were as good or better than the student body as a whole.

How can any of this tie in the slightest bit to academics or education? Regarding the paying the players debate, I'd rather just shut it all down at this point, and that saddens me. I've loved watching Duke sports, especially the basketball team. But at this point it just all seems like one giant corrupt business to me. I cast no aspersions on any of our players or coaches for this development and do not think that Duke has been particularly part of the problem (although I think the one and done change has significantly devalued what it means to be a Duke student-athlete, although I blame no one for taking the money).

Why should Duke exist in an NCAA that makes a mockery of academics (in the UNC situation) or the ACC (wherein we have to play the aforementioned cheaters)? Why should we compete against programs with shoe money greasing the wheels? Why should DI sports (or the revenue sports) exist when they seem to have little to do with academics, everything to do with a big business and the business is (in most cases) losing money?

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this post - but actually would like to hear arguments why we should continue our current participation in the whole enterprise and why sports shouldn't go back to being a club level enterprise - diversions for students who are otherwise on the campus to be students.

Well, if you could get all schools--or a substantial majority--to do this, or something like it, it would be a terrific thing. In theory, athletic scholarships provide opportunities for talented athletes to get a college education they might not otherwise be able to afford--but you could accomplish the same purpose by providing need-based aid not linked to athletic ability.

But if only one or two schools do it, then they put themselves at a disadvantage--alumni/ae support and dollars often hinge on continued athletic success, and successful athletic teams bring a lot of publicity to a school. I was teaching at George Mason University in 2006 when the basketball team made the Final Four--and there was a dramatic increase in applications over the next few years, especially from out of state. Some of these applicants had likely never heard of GMU before the Final Four run.

For a school like Duke, whose brand is deeply tied into that well-rounded academics plus athletics plus service combination, dropping D1 athletics, or even going to the Ivy model of D1 athletics without athletic scholarships, would be a pretty significant paradigm shift.

But I don't disagree that it is harder and harder to see the revenue sports especially as having a significant connection to the fundamental academic purpose of universities, even at schools like Duke where they at least try to provide their one-and-done transients, as well as other athletes, with something resembling an actual college student experience.

[BigWayne]

As a start, I am sending a letter to key Duke individuals requesting that they forfeit all games against UNC rather than play against cheaters.

I am looking for some major response from Duke and/or the ACC. If none is forthcoming, I would support the OP's suggestion of withdrawing from D1 sports.

[Scorp4me]

In the past I believe it was suggested because Duke could not keep up with other Division I programs. Now I have to believe it is because other Division I programs cannot keep up with Duke without resorting to cheating. So I think the OP suggestion is certainly a valid one.

[superdave]

Basketball is small potatoes to the college sports world. NCAA or the FBI doing anything in college hoops will not change much.

Football is the revenue source. I have said for years that the BCS playoffs is a stepping stone towards major college football being carved out of the NCAA. I still believe that, although I have no idea what the next step would be (NCAA clamping down on SEC recruiting?).

[Hingeknocker]

With the essentially simultaneous decisions by the NCAA to accept UNC's excuses, but deny the eligibility of NC State's Braxton Beverly for the egregious offense of having taken college classes before his coach at OSU retired - precipitating his transfer to NC State - the only conclusion I can draw is that the NCAA's time overseeing college sports should be over.

I do not think there is any overarching reason to end college sports altogether. A more moral and just system could easily exist within the academic structure. But, so long as the NCAA as currently constituted is in charge, my fandom is going to continue to be degraded by the NCAA's immorality.

Edited to add: I am fully aware that the NCAA is the schools, and the schools are the NCAA. They are one and the same. Duke, by virtue of being a member school, shares complicity in the current state of things, along with every other member school. We have created and allowed to persist the very poison that many are decrying today. Who will step up and lead us to a better place? I'm not optimistic anyone will.

[cspan37421]

We must rebuild. But who will lead us in the rebuilding process? Man, it's got to be someone with the know-how and the elbow grease to lead us to a new land. Who will step up and lead us to a better place? I'm not optimistic anyone will.

Me and KG!

Wait, we don't have the cognitive capacity to lead.

Oh alright - we'll do it!

The first decree is ... to banish UNC from the land!

[elvis14]

Today really makes me think for the first time that major changes have to be made. Earlier this week I was listening to what people had to say about US Soccer and how we don't compete because we don't properly train players from ages 16-22. We need academy teams instead of college teams to compete with the rest of the worlds. So my thought was, why can't a academy team offer a kid a college scholarship? That way our better soccer players can train at a high level and still got to college on scholarship.

After today, I have to think perhaps this model should be exended beyond soccer. With soccer it's about competing with the rest of the world. We have 16-22 year old student athletes (well except for UNCheat) and the rest of the world has 16-22 year old soccer players. Maybe high level D1 sports should be replaced by these academy teams.

I'm not sure what the answer is but with the 'student athlete' being killed off today, the same old same old just isn't good enough anymore.

[rocketeli]

the late Nora Ephron defined porn as "something you're embarrassed it got you off" and college sports are starting to be like porn for me. I've long enjoyed them, but I'm starting to be embarrassed about it. Our beloved Duke significantly lowered it's admission standards for large men who like to hit people--at the expense, no doubt of some very qualified applicants. It's clearly nonsense that institutions of higher education are running professional sports clubs, which are what the upper level programs are. Of course, there are about 4000 colleges and universities in the US and about 2000 belong to the NCAA and about 360 of those play division I sports and about 130 of them play bowl division football--so we have to be careful about what we are talking about (Just as with "pay the players"-which players--the women's swimming team? the men's fencing team? the players at schools that make money only?(about 5 of them) etc. etc.)

My proposition is that the big money/division I teams like Ohio state or Alabama have their donors sponsor a sports club for whatever sports they feel appropriate, and recruit players as employees of said club--with perhaps an option to take courses at free or lowered rates as an employee benefit, but no requirement to do so. The players would be paid openly, given benefits and there would be no question of unqualified people pretending to go to class and occupying seats that actually qualified students could have. The club would then play in its own league, as with the bowl division now. I've read enough message boards for other teams to know that most of their fans don't give a -- about the academic performances of their heroes and people sure like to root for pro teams so fan interest would remain high. Each school could choose to have a branded club for any all or none of their revenue (or other sports) and the true amateurs, the rowers, runners and so on could still enjoy intercollegiate competions sponsored by the NCAA.

[smvalkyries]

This is a sad sad day. I think ending all Div 1 sports is overkill but I also don't relish the thought of trying to continue having real student athletes compete against semi-pro ringers for a
another 21 years. That situation might actually get worse with the NCAA validation of the Carolina Way as newly defined and exposed., I do not believe that Duke can or should sit by and accept this ridiculous decision. Years ago we could have counted on the ACC to have integrity (witness Mike Grosso) but such is apparently no longer the case. I don't know what Duke should do. I suggest we ask Coach K and Coach Cut what they want to do. Some suggestions are (1) Quit the NCAA and all the ramifications thereof, (2) Forfeit or do not schedule schools following the New Carolina Way for at least the next 21 years . I find both too extreme but have no better suggestions. Maybe someone wiser and more calm than I can come up with a better solution.
As a minimum protest I think we should not play any sporting contests with UNC-ch (they get to keep the U too) this year and possibly next. I also think we need to seriously consider founding or supporting some other body to govern college sports and dumping the NCAA or permitting them to just run their own semi-pro league in conjunction with the shoe companies.
The least damaging way I have of looking at this whole thing is that UNC provided no additional benefit of value to their student athletes by essentially giving them academic credits towards "earning" their degree from UNC. I really can't accept this as true as the value of the degree is certainly tainted and diminished yet it does retain some value and therefore gifting credits is and will continue to be impermissible benefit in my mind.

[duke79]

the late Nora Ephron defined porn as "something you're embarrassed it got you off" and college sports are starting to be like porn for me. I've long enjoyed them, but I'm starting to be embarrassed about it. Our beloved Duke significantly lowered it's admission standards for large men who like to hit people--at the expense, no doubt of some very qualified applicants. It's clearly nonsense that institutions of higher education are running professional sports clubs, which are what the upper level programs are. Of course, there are about 4000 colleges and universities in the US and about 2000 belong to the NCAA and about 360 of those play division I sports and about 130 of them play bowl division football--so we have to be careful about what we are talking about (Just as with "pay the players"-which players--the women's swimming team? the men's fencing team? the players at schools that make money only?(about 5 of them) etc. etc.)

My proposition is that the big money/division I teams like Ohio state or Alabama have their donors sponsor a sports club for whatever sports they feel appropriate, and recruit players as employees of said club--with perhaps an option to take courses at free or lowered rates as an employee benefit, but no requirement to do so. The players would be paid openly, given benefits and there would be no question of unqualified people pretending to go to class and occupying seats that actually qualified students could have. The club would then play in its own league, as with the bowl division now. I've read enough message boards for other teams to know that most of their fans don't give a -- about the academic performances of their heroes and people sure like to root for pro teams so fan interest would remain high. Each school could choose to have a branded club for any all or none of their revenue (or other sports) and the true amateurs, the rowers, runners and so on could still enjoy intercollegiate competions sponsored by the NCAA.

I feel your disgust at what has happened to college (or, at least, some Division I schools and certain sports and programs) sports and your suggestion (italicized) above MAY be the best solution to what has become an untenable and unsustainable future for some college sports (mostly football and basketball). I'm not optimistic, though, that any major reform, like what you propose, will take place any time in the near future. There is simply too much money flowing into the coffers at some of these schools (including Duke) for those institutions to walk away from that cash stream. They'll try to make some reforms around the edges but I think the basic setup will continue for the rest of my lifetime.

[DukeandMdFan]

How can any of this tie in the slightest bit to academics or education?

Why should Duke exist in an NCAA that makes a mockery of academics (in the UNC situation) or the ACC (wherein we have to play the aforementioned cheaters)? Why should we compete against programs with shoe money greasing the wheels? Why should DI sports (or the revenue sports) exist when they seem to have little to do with academics, everything to do with a big business and the business is (in most cases) losing money?

Watching sports is an enjoyable activity for the student-body and alumni and is a source of pride, etc. Perhaps the success of athletes inspires students to be more successful in some area(s) of their life.

The athletes are welcome to get an education out of the system if they choose to, but no outside organizations are requiring it.

[Devils Librarian]

My proposition is that the big money/division I teams like Ohio state or Alabama have their donors sponsor a sports club for whatever sports they feel appropriate, and recruit players as employees of said club--with perhaps an option to take courses at free or lowered rates as an employee benefit, but no requirement to do so. The players would be paid openly, given benefits and there would be no question of unqualified people pretending to go to class and occupying seats that actually qualified students could have. The club would then play in its own league, as with the bowl division now. I've read enough message boards for other teams to know that most of their fans don't give a -- about the academic performances of their heroes and people sure like to root for pro teams so fan interest would remain high. Each school could choose to have a branded club for any all or none of their revenue (or other sports) and the true amateurs, the rowers, runners and so on could still enjoy intercollegiate competions sponsored by the NCAA.

I feel like this is the next logical evolution. If today's ruling accomplished nothing else it has shown that the emperor has no clothes. We should bury the fraud that is "amateurism" and allow schools to openly pay their athletes. Coaches, refs, announcers, and the schools are all getting paid so why shouldn't the athletes?

I wonder what the reaction would be across the country if Kevin White announced, "In light of today's ruling by the NCAA, Duke athletics will begin paying it's players."

[Hingeknocker]

My proposition is that the big money/division I teams like Ohio state or Alabama have their donors sponsor a sports club for whatever sports they feel appropriate, and recruit players as employees of said club--with perhaps an option to take courses at free or lowered rates as an employee benefit, but no requirement to do so. The players would be paid openly, given benefits and there would be no question of unqualified people pretending to go to class and occupying seats that actually qualified students could have. The club would then play in its own league, as with the bowl division now. I've read enough message boards for other teams to know that most of their fans don't give a -- about the academic performances of their heroes and people sure like to root for pro teams so fan interest would remain high. Each school could choose to have a branded club for any all or none of their revenue (or other sports) and the true amateurs, the rowers, runners and so on could still enjoy intercollegiate competions sponsored by the NCAA.

This is EXACTLY what every school should do. Duke should do this. If schools do not do this, eventually the players will realize the whole existing structure is a giant scam perpetrated against them, and some other league will sprout up for them. I for one think it would be incredibly foolish for schools to throw away the 100+ years of equity they have built in the passion of their alums and fans, but hey, I'm not in charge.

[fuse]

Given how feckless the NCAA has shown itself to be, I’d love for Duke to take the lead on what’s next.

Can’t be done in a vacuum, of course.

Time for the ALPACA (American League of Paid Athletes in College Association) to rise and displace the NCAA.

[mapei]

I haven't been posting here nearly as much as I once did. Real Life has intervened. But I still read the board often, especially during the season. And today this caught my attention.

FWIW, I find monkey's original post very well stated. It expresses my feelings precisely. Thanks for bringing up this very difficult subject and, to me, logical response. It's time for this conversation, no matter how painful.

[Ranidad]

Great thread and I will definitely give it some more thought. A couple quick thoughts...

1) The money is all in football and to a much lesser extent men's basketball. I think solutions need to focus on those two sports where the money tossed at universities is huge and where a relatively large number of athletes have a chance at a large professional sports payday.

2) To me the NBA's rule on minimum age is what truly exposes the hypocrisy of student-athletes. At least with football, most athletes have a redshirt year and then need at least two years of playing to be ready to jump to the NFL. With that timeline, football players have at least 3 years to complete work toward a degree.

3) Eliminating the crazy geography that football conferences have created for non-revenue sports, could enable universities to get back to a more reasonable travel schedule for other sports, reducing cost and time away from campus for the student athletes.

[Bostondevil]

But if only one or two schools do it, then they put themselves at a disadvantage--alumni/ae support and dollars often hinge on continued athletic success,

In 2016-17, the Iron Dukes received over $39 million in donations.

I've found a few lists ranking universities in terms of federal research grants received. Duke usually comes in around 10th, with figures north of $550 million every year. (They are usually ahead of Harvard and behind Stanford. Johns Hopkins tends to be first.) The federal research money is usually more than half but less than 60% of the total spent on R&D. The rest comes from private donors, corporations, and other sources. Duke could survive just fine without the Iron Dukes.

[MChambers]

Basketball is small potatoes to the college sports world. NCAA or the FBI doing anything in college hoops will not change much.

Football is the revenue source. I have said for years that the BCS playoffs is a stepping stone towards major college football being carved out of the NCAA. I still believe that, although I have no idea what the next step would be (NCAA clamping down on SEC recruiting?).

CTE may be the end of football as we know it, in the not too distant future. I don’t understand how any sport that causes brain injury should be played be educational institutions. If football goes, maybe that radically changes the economics of college sports.

I’m fine with ending Division I sports.